Should a conviction still be allowed to hold ex-felons back?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by sweetmagnolia

This.

I don't want to throw a complete monkey wrench in the initial topic of this thread, but I think this is related (tangential, yes, but still related)- do you guys think that ex-felons should be allowed to vote? (Not being able to vote, imo, is holding people back).

From the Washington Post

I think felons should be able to vote after they've served their time.

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

In a previous position, I was responsible for preparing exoffenders for employment reentry. I also worked with employers to convince them to give these folks a chance.

My take is this. Take questions about convictions off applications. They serve no purpose but to facilitate immediate discrimination. After the interview, I don't have a problem with employers doing background checks on people.

I always advise ex-offenders to be open and honest about their past during the interview.

I want to talk to you! My new job is as a case manager with parolees, with the goal of reducing recidivism and getting them employment/housing/etc.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Felons are felons for a reason. They did something bad and are branded as felons--something which is a part of their paying a debt to society.

When does it end or should we just tattoo them with a scarlet F for the rest of their lives?

As for voting, I have no problem discriminating against felons. By committing a felony, they forfeit their right to participate fully in it. They get no sympathy from me. How not being able to vote holds them back as some have suggested is an interesting concept. How does that hold them back? By creating a sub-class which doesn't have to be pandered to by politicians? Do you want your politicians pandering to felons? Not me.

Creating any legalized sub-class creates the ultimate no-taxation-without-representation pitfall. Keeping them a sub-class, after they've done prison time, parole, and/or probation is inhumane. What would you want them to do? Work under the table? Live on public aid? Starve? Sell more drugs for more money? Most of the guys I work with could make more money over lunch than I will all month. Until they get arrested again and then tax payers pay one more time.

Felons are more likely to steal and get an employer sued, so a smart employer absolutely will discriminate here.

Citation needed.

And for every felon who is discriminated against, a non-felon gets that job--someone who hasn't strayed from the straight and narrow, or at least hasn't been caught.

Or who had the money to get out of it. You've just admitted that the "straight" man has no moral superiority, so why make the distinction?

Originally Posted by 33girl

Well, if we're going to start saying who does and doesn't have the right to vote, I say we keep the idiotic women who use abortion as birth control out of the voting booth. They're not smart enough to take a pill or stick a diaphragm in, why on earth should they have the right to vote? (No, I don't mean women who have an abortion because of an unplanned pregnancy, I mean those who get abortions over and over again and NEVER use birth control.)

Abortion is birth control. Not policing women's bodies means not policing their bodies. Shaming someone for having 6 abortions is the same as shaming someone for having one. If it's her body then it's her body.

Originally Posted by Kevin

You think it's society's fault that criminals reoffend? Do they lack free will or something?

You are talking about people who are linear, concrete thinkers and frequently do not connect actions with consequences. My agency provides cognitive behavioral therapy based on this, and having been trained in it this week, it's backed up by evidence based-practices.

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Interesting you bring this up. For those who believe that it's unconstitutional to ask applicants if they've had prior convictions, how do you feel about sex offenders having to register as such?

I don't like it. We're not good at predicting who will reoffend and who won't. And the lists that basically prohibit offenders from living anywhere in town, and require 18 year old streakers to register for life are very very broken. We need reform here.

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'm well aware of these arguments and have seen decent success, although the cost-justification is questionable with certain drug court programs. The big problem with all of what you said is that especially these days, the state's resources, particularly in the area of corrections are very tight. The startup cost is high for these programs and the retention of the sort of skilled state employees needed for these programs is a highly significant cost.

Or private agencies are contracted (mine) and the state does it because it saves money in the end.

It is very questionable here whether the cost of a straight retributive system is more than a rehabilitative one. What is not questionable is whether the states our the feds have the resources right now to significantly change the corrections system in any meaningful way.

The desire to change has to come first.

It's always been as simple as just not committing felonies. No need for naval gazing and contemplating life's complexities. Just don't commit felonies and you are far less likely to go to the pokey.

I'm assuming you speed right? Ever gotten caught speeding? Is your response "oh gee, my bad" or "That cop's an asshole, why wasn't he out catching real criminals." It's the same minimization and justification that felons do, just on a different scale.

Originally Posted by Kevin

As for having tiered felonies, I'm in favor of something to that effect. I still agree with political disenfranchisement because I don't want a criminal class as a political constituency. That can't ever be a good thing.

They're only a criminal class as long as they're kept that way.

You do know that if an employer hires an ex-felon and that felon does something to hurt someone that the employer can be sued for negligent hiring, right?

What are the statistics on that?

As far as background checks go, does anyone expect McDonald's to perform background checks on every single one of its applicants?

McDs doesn't hire felons anymore. At least not around here.

Even "the kid who got mixed up with the wrong crowd" is a lot more likely to steal from his employer than someone who never sold drugs. It's a legitimate concern for employers. Imagine if you were in my shoes, would you hire a receptionist who had a felony drug distribution conviction? Someone who would be taking payments for you, handing confidential and potentially damaging information? Hell no you wouldn't.

It would depend on the person. Particularly if I was in the position to be hiring a receptionist in the first place. Again, citation needed.

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

You are killing me with this whole sex offender thing...

A pedophile wouldn't be interested in a teenage girl anyway.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I think felons should be able to vote after they've served their time.

You're entitled to your opinion.

Creating any legalized sub-class creates the ultimate no-taxation-without-representation pitfall. Keeping them a sub-class, after they've done prison time, parole, and/or probation is inhumane. What would you want them to do? Work under the table? Live on public aid? Starve? Sell more drugs for more money? Most of the guys I work with could make more money over lunch than I will all month. Until they get arrested again and then tax payers pay one more time.

No, all of those things would be their choice. Most of the former felons I know who are successful own their own businesses. I know some who do very well. Sprinkler system installation and garage door repair are two fairly simple businesses which pay well.

Had a client not too long ago, was a former professional boxer, was convicted and did time for manslaughter, I believe he was driving under the influence, had a wreck and killed his wife. He did his time, etc. Now he has a decently successful garage door repair company. Anecdotal sure, but to pretend that all hope is lost because someone else won't provide someone a job ignores the fact that there are many low overhead trades one only has to invest a little time in learning which can provide a decent living if one can market oneself (which isn't hard).

Citation needed.

You need a citation to tell you that felons are more likely than non-felons to steal from their employers? As for the other stuff, google negligent hiring.

At any rate, I just did Google recidivism rates and as you could probably predict, most felony convicts have prior felony convictions, at least in Washington, in 2007.

http://www.sgc.wa.gov/PUBS/Recidivis...ivism_FY07.pdf

Or who had the money to get out of it. You've just admitted that the "straight" man has no moral superiority, so why make the distinction?

Because the distinction between ex-felon and clean record is a very real one.

You are talking about people who are linear, concrete thinkers and frequently do not connect actions with consequences. My agency provides cognitive behavioral therapy based on this, and having been trained in it this week, it's backed up by evidence based-practices.

Well, that's a problem--if they don't connect their actions to consequences, that's why society wants to kick them to the curb. Someone who has proven themselves to be a danger to society should be treated as such.

I don't like it. We're not good at predicting who will reoffend and who won't. And the lists that basically prohibit offenders from living anywhere in town, and require 18 year old streakers to register for life are very very broken. We need reform here.

We're pretty good at predicting who will reoffend, the statistics are readily available.

I agree, the sex offender statutes are in a state of disarray. Most politicians are too scared to vote for anything which could be seen as 'pro-sex offender.'

Or private agencies are contracted (mine) and the state does it because it saves money in the end. The desire to change has to come first.

The money is not even there for that in most places. If your state has that sort of funding, good for it. From where I'm from, our Dept. of Corrections is so chronically underfunded as well as our county jails, that at least here in Oklahoma County, the feds have sued the county and are threatening to take over the jail.

Otherwise services are cut to the bone. I've actually been meaning to do some volunteer work prosecuting prisoners' civil rights claims. Just been too busy with cases that pay as of late.

I'm assuming you speed right? Ever gotten caught speeding? Is your response "oh gee, my bad" or "That cop's an asshole, why wasn't he out catching real criminals." It's the same minimization and justification that felons do, just on a different scale.

I see what you did there... comparing going 5MPH over the speed limit to selling crack, raping and killing.

The minimization which goes on, if it does, is not quite on the same level.

I haven't been tagged for speeding since I was 17.[/quote]

It would depend on the person. Particularly if I was in the position to be hiring a receptionist in the first place. Again, citation needed.

I'm in a position to hire receptionists and interns. I don't really have that problem with receptionists because I mostly hire college kids from good families. As for legal interns, they're probably not going to get into law school with any sort of felony on their record, so I'm somewhat insulated there as well.

But, if I was looking at hiring a full time assistant, which I've managed just fine without, I'd definitely be interested in their background checks. I keep very personal information on my clients and other parties, especially in family law cases. I'm not even going to take a chance with someone with a former drug problem, felony charges, etc. There are plenty of folks out there who don't have those issues, and as an employer, that's the talent pool I'm interested in.

It's like buying a house with prior flood damage. Sure, the flood damage has been completely remediated, the owner installed multiple layers of French drains, etc., but just down the street, there's a house that's just as nice with zero flooding history. Which are you going to buy?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Kevin

You're entitled to your opinion.

Thanks, I feel so blessed to have their permission.

No, all of those things would be their choice. Most of the former felons I know who are successful own their own businesses. I know some who do very well. Sprinkler system installation and garage door repair are two fairly simple businesses which pay well.

How does one feed their family or themselves while getting into such a business when people don't want to hire them or take them on. How many sprinkler companies can a heavily populated urban area support? Now thankfully there are businesses that hire felons. They don't hire every felon who applies, but they look at the whole applicant, not just the felony.

Had a client not too long ago...

Would you hire him to fix your garage? (Had he not been your client that is.)

You need a citation to tell you that felons are more likely than non-felons to steal from their employers? As for the other stuff, google negligent hiring.

Actually yes, I do and you didn't provide one.

At any rate, I just did Google recidivism rates and as you could probably predict, most felony convicts have prior felony convictions, at least in Washington, in 2007.

Criminal history is a big predictor of reoffending, but it's the only one of about six big ones that the offender cannot change.(And a dozen lessor predictors) However that says nothing about the risks of the employer. And plenty of ex-felons are not in for violent crimes (or sexual harassment), why would an employer fear to hire them for the negligent hiring reasons?

Because the distinction between ex-felon and clean record is a very real one.

"Got caught"

Well, that's a problem--if they don't connect their actions to consequences, that's why society wants to kick them to the curb. Someone who has proven themselves to be a danger to society should be treated as such.

A) you've made an assumption that ex-felons are dangers to society. B) Society doesn't get to kick people to the curb. The Constitution doesn't grant rights, it protects inherent ones. People deserve to have their rights protected.

So you can kick them to the curb and then put them back in prison or you could make an effort to teach them something different.

We're pretty good at predicting who will reoffend, the statistics are readily available.

I agree, the sex offender statutes are in a state of disarray. Most politicians are too scared to vote for anything which could be seen as 'pro-sex offender.'

Not with sex-offenders we're not. We're really bad at predicting which person will reoffend. There are actual tools (supported by research) that can assess the likelihood of reoffending by non-sex offender felons, and then can give areas to work on such as obtaining employment, replacing antisocial thinking with prosocial thinking, etc. But they don't work well with sex offenders.

Mental Health isn't any better at making those predictions.

But I agree about the politicians.

The money is not even there for that in most places. If your state has that sort of funding, good for it. From where I'm from, our Dept. of Corrections is so chronically underfunded as well as our county jails, that at least here in Oklahoma County, the feds have sued the county and are threatening to take over the jail.

Otherwise services are cut to the bone. I've actually been meaning to do some volunteer work prosecuting prisoners' civil rights claims. Just been too busy with cases that pay as of late.

So OK needs to get it's shit in order. here, DOC gets cut, and everyone works mandatory OT. My state's broke as hell too. But either we want prison to be rehabilitative or punishing or both. We claim both but don't do a lot of the rehabilitation that would actually reduce crime and make society safer.

I see what you did there... comparing going 5MPH over the speed limit to selling crack, raping and killing.

The minimization which goes on, if it does, is not quite on the same level.

I haven't been tagged for speeding since I was 17.

It's on a different scale, but it's the same thought process. So, you've kept speeding, but you didn't get caught? (Also mostly here, talking about non-violent offenders. But there's a difference between the 22 year old involved in violent crime and the 30 year old too. And your use of raping and killing is just as dramatic an overstatement. Rapists would be sex offenders, see previous comments. Murderers would not be out after a 10 year bit in any state I'm aware of.

Drug dealers, car thieves? Same logic. "They have insurance. I need the money. Everyone does it, I just got caught. They're out to get me. " They get busted and say "i'll never do that again." And then they do it again.

Just like people who speed get a ticket, swear they'll never do it again and are going 75 again 30 miles down the road. "This time I'll be more careful. What're the odds that I'll get caught this time? Lightning doesn't strike twice!"

I'm in a position to hire receptionists and interns. I don't really have that problem with receptionists because I mostly hire college kids from good families. As for legal interns, they're probably not going to get into law school with any sort of felony on their record, so I'm somewhat insulated there as well.

Felons never come from good families though right? So you're "safe." That's your silver spoon talking.

It's like buying a house with prior flood damage. Sure, the flood damage has been completely remediated, the owner installed multiple layers of French drains, etc., but just down the street, there's a house that's just as nice with zero flooding history. Which are you going to buy?

As long as you think of ex-felons as "damaged people" you're going to keep thinking like this. I'm not saying that the guys who work with me are even qualified to be a receptionist, I'm saying they're qualified to be hired and work fixing your roof, washing your car, or making your stuff in a factory.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

How does one feed their family or themselves while getting into such a business when people don't want to hire them or take them on. How many sprinkler companies can a heavily populated urban area support? Now thankfully there are businesses that hire felons. They don't hire every felon who applies, but they look at the whole applicant, not just the felony.

Feed their families? Most newly released felons don't have families, they have child support payments.

Would you hire him to fix your garage? (Had he not been your client that is.)

Absolutely, he came highly recommended. He did all my parents' garage door work when they built their McManshion.

However that says nothing about the risks of the employer. And plenty of ex-felons are not in for violent crimes (or sexual harassment), why would an employer fear to hire them for the negligent hiring reasons?

That depends on the job. Would you hire a guy with a felony DUI charge to deliver pizza for you? Would you hire someone with a drug conviction to be a cashier? Probably not, and the first could get you sued.

A) you've made an assumption that ex-felons are dangers to society. B) Society doesn't get to kick people to the curb. The Constitution doesn't grant rights, it protects inherent ones. People deserve to have their rights protected.

Okay then, what Constitutional right are you suggesting keeps felons from experiencing what they're experiencing right now? That paragraph is almost as silly as something I'd expect from a 10ther.

So you can kick them to the curb and then put them back in prison or you could make an effort to teach them something different.

When there are limited resources and sticking 'em back in the pokey is more cost effective and protects society from them, that's just fine. Not everyone is able to be rehabilitated.

I'm all for second-chance programs like drug courts, but in most cases, once they have that felony conviction, they've earned it.

Not with sex-offenders we're not. We're really bad at predicting which person will reoffend. There are actual tools (supported by research) that can assess the likelihood of reoffending by non-sex offender felons, and then can give areas to work on such as obtaining employment, replacing antisocial thinking with prosocial thinking, etc. But they don't work well with sex offenders.

Cool.. well, since we're so bad at predicting, we should just let convicted child molesters run daycare centers, right? It wouldn't be fair to them if we said that they had a far better than average chance of recidivism. I mean, after all, they have served their debts to society and we can't accurately predict whether they'll reoffend.

So OK needs to get it's shit in order. here, DOC gets cut, and everyone works mandatory OT. My state's broke as hell too. But either we want prison to be rehabilitative or punishing or both. We claim both but don't do a lot of the rehabilitation that would actually reduce crime and make society safer.

Citation needed.

It's on a different scale, but it's the same thought process. So, you've kept speeding, but you didn't get caught? (Also mostly here, talking about non-violent offenders. But there's a difference between the 22 year old involved in violent crime and the 30 year old too. And your use of raping and killing is just as dramatic an overstatement. Rapists would be sex offenders, see previous comments. Murderers would not be out after a 10 year bit in any state I'm aware of.

You made the comparison, not I. I agree, it was absurd. Thinking one does no harm in speeding is not the same as thinking one does no harm in committing a felony. And a murderer could be out in less than 10 or not even serve time depending what kind of homicide crime he's convicted of.

Drug dealers, car thieves? Same logic. "They have insurance. I need the money. Everyone does it, I just got caught. They're out to get me. " They get busted and say "i'll never do that again." And then they do it again.

Yeah, actually, I was recently a victim of several petty felonies like that. One of our movers stole my checkbook and decided to write himself a few paychecks. Guy was dumb as dirt--signed his real name, legibly to the signature line. I'm a cooperating state's witness now. I wasn't damaged in the least because my bank took care of everything, but I'm going to do what I can to make sure this idiot does time and never gets a job again where the employer places him in a position of trust.

Had he had this felony record before the moving company hired him, I would have a viable cause of action for negligent hiring. Or at least my bank would since I'm not really damaged.

Felons never come from good families though right? So you're "safe." That's your silver spoon talking.

Yes I am.

As long as you think of ex-felons as "damaged people" you're going to keep thinking like this. I'm not saying that the guys who work with me are even qualified to be a receptionist, I'm saying they're qualified to be hired and work fixing your roof, washing your car, or making your stuff in a factory.

But why would any of those employers employee felons when there were equally qualified non-felons out there?

[DrPhil]

I hate McMansions. That is all.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I hate McMansions. That is all.

So do I! Most of them are so ugly and have no character what so ever. I'd take a 80-90 year old craftsmen style house over a McMansion any day of the week.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

So do I! Most of them are so ugly and have no character what so ever. I'd take a 80-90 year old craftsmen style house over a McMansion any day of the week.

Some are stunningly beautiful but a waste of design and size because they are 4 feet from the next house and too close to the street. What's the point of stuffing mansions in neighborhoods designed for smaller houses? What's the point of buying a mansion when you don't have a large front and back lawn to match the house? Spend your money on property where you can landscape and have a big lawn to mow. It's bad enough that newer houses tend not to have attics and/or basements.

I also prefer older styled houses and "plantation columns. I won't go on that rant.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Feed their families? Most newly released felons don't have families, they have child support payments.

This is why I say citation needed. I haven't met all the guys in our program, but many of them have families. And even if they "only" have child support payments, are those children supposed to suffer too?

Absolutely, he came highly recommended. He did all my parents' garage door work when they built their McManshion.

But he's a felon. So not all felons are created equal, huh?

That depends on the job. Would you hire a guy with a felony DUI charge to deliver pizza for you? Would you hire someone with a drug conviction to be a cashier? Probably not, and the first could get you sued.

But the only reason you wouldn't hire them for the latter is because you're afraid, so the negligent hiring issue is rather an aside here.

Okay then, what Constitutional right are you suggesting keeps felons from experiencing what they're experiencing right now? That paragraph is almost as silly as something I'd expect from a 10ther.

Voting. And I don't know what a "10ther" is so feel free to keep misconstruing my point.

When there are limited resources and sticking 'em back in the pokey is more cost effective and protects society from them, that's just fine. Not everyone is able to be rehabilitated.

It's not necessarily more cost effective. It's easy. Prisons are full and they're expensive. That's pretty much the case everywhere. Illinois doesn't have the funding to open a new prison or hire new employees.

I'm all for second-chance programs like drug courts, but in most cases, once they have that felony conviction, they've earned it.

Agreed, they earned it. So your options are brand them with it for the rest of their lives or do something to get them back. Subclasses of people are bad.

Cool.. well, since we're so bad at predicting, we should just let convicted child molesters run daycare centers, right?

And you were dissing my argument? I really hope you don't argue like this in court. I'm sure it wins cases but it screws your integrity to shit.

Citation needed.

Citation provided: Click
Click

The putatively beneficial effect of punishment on criminal offenders is examined by estimating a logistic specification of a two-period model of optimal participation in illegitimate and legitimate activities. Estimates are obtained utilizing a sample of parolees released from all adult correctional institutions in the United States during 1972. The conclusion would seem to be that incarceration is not substantially effective in rehabilitation efforts and may even have a result opposite to that intended: increased punishment may increase optimal participation in crime.

Shift in the Juvenile Court System from Rehabilitation to Punishment

Rehab vs. punishment/deterrence is a huge debate. I don't have the citations from work, so these will have to do. I recommend looking at the work of Dr. Latessa.

You made the comparison, not I. I agree, it was absurd. Thinking one does no harm in speeding is not the same as thinking one does no harm in committing a felony. And a murderer could be out in less than 10 or not even serve time depending what kind of homicide crime he's convicted of.

I said felons, you said rapists and murderers. Stop pulling the bullshit of "you said it not me" and have a mature discussion without resorting to hyperbole. I make an effort to do so, I'd appreciate you doing the same. Also, you said murderer, not someone convicted of manslaughter or negligent homicide.

I said repeatedly that they are the same thinking processes and they are. How is thinking it's ok to speed not the same as thinking it's ok to do drugs for example? Both are nominally "victimless" unless something unplanned happens.

Yeah, actually, I was recently a victim of several petty felonies like that. One of our movers stole my checkbook and decided to write himself a few paychecks. Guy was dumb as dirt--signed his real name, legibly to the signature line. I'm a cooperating state's witness now. I wasn't damaged in the least because my bank took care of everything, but I'm going to do what I can to make sure this idiot does time and never gets a job again where the employer places him in a position of trust.

Had he had this felony record before the moving company hired him, I would have a viable cause of action for negligent hiring. Or at least my bank would since I'm not really damaged.

And that's why we tell our guys that writing in to explain their conviction in person rather than just writing it down makes a difference. That guy could earn trust back, slowly, one day after doing his time. Your option is to ensure he doesn't ever have trust again. I know which system I'd prefer to be under, but I'm aware that you have not, in the past, been able to conceive of being in a similar situation as someone less fortunate than you whether chronically unemployed or convicted of a crime, even wrongfully so. However, negligent hiring is an aside for this discussion as it would, for the most part, not apply.

Yes I am.

At least you acknowledge that what you're saying is bullshit then.

But why would any of those employers employee felons when there were equally qualified non-felons out there?

Why not? I know they do, and that our guys can get jobs. Some probably make a point to give guys second chances. Others pay cash. Others find that not a lot of people want to do roof work in 110 degree heat indicies.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Abortion is birth control. Not policing women's bodies means not policing their bodies. Shaming someone for having 6 abortions is the same as shaming someone for having one. If it's her body then it's her body.

Abortion is not birth control. Birth control is to prevent pregnancy from ever occurring. Abortion is the termination of an already occurred pregnancy.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Abortion is not birth control. Birth control is to prevent pregnancy from ever occurring. Abortion is the termination of an already occurred pregnancy.

Birth control prevents birth. While most birth control prevents conception or implantation, it is true that abortion - chemical or surgical does terminate the pregnancy.

The point is, people only get abortions to prevent birth. Not for shits and giggles and because they had a spare afternoon after getting their nails done. Either women have the right to control their bodies or they don't. You can't say that X number of abortions is acceptable but X+1 isn't.

No matter how many (I suspect mythical) women there are having abortions once a month because they can't bother with prophylactic measures.

[33girl]

IMO the women who don't take any responsibility for their bodies and contraception ARE having abortions for shits and giggles. I hope they are mythical, but I'm quite afraid they're not.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

IMO the women who don't take any responsibility for their bodies and contraception ARE having abortions for shits and giggles. I hope they are mythical, but I'm quite afraid they're not.

Isn't having an abortion taking responsibility? Have you ever met anyone who had one for fun?

It's kind of like the mythical welfare "queens" popping out 12 babies to by a Cadillac. Or all those women who get pregnant to trap a man. There are people who are not as responsible as you would like them to be, or even with a warped view of the world, but most of these images are urban legends with very few instances of actual truth mixed in.

And if someone believes that an abortion is not killing a baby, the only limitations on having them would be financial cost and their own body's health and safety. There's no moral problem with having them every month, it's just impractical and unhealthy. (And probably impossible.)

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Isn't having an abortion taking responsibility? Have you ever met anyone who had one for fun?

It's kind of like the mythical welfare "queens" popping out 12 babies to by a Cadillac. Or all those women who get pregnant to trap a man. There are people who are not as responsible as you would like them to be, or even with a warped view of the world, but most of these images are urban legends with very few instances of actual truth mixed in.

And if someone believes that an abortion is not killing a baby, the only limitations on having them would be financial cost and their own body's health and safety. There's no moral problem with having them every month, it's just impractical and unhealthy. (And probably impossible.)

Like I said, I hope these ARE mythical. But some people just have a "it won't happen to me" outlook on life and act with very little concern for themselves or others.

We're never going to agree on this so I'll just chime in and say I hate McMansions also.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Like I said, I hope these ARE mythical. But some people just have a "it won't happen to me" outlook on life and act with very little concern for themselves or others.

We're never going to agree on this so I'll just chime in and say I hate McMansions also.

LOL it's ok. I just think it's hypocritical to judge some people for having a medical procedure and not others. (As if you think it's murder, or at least morally fraught, then you would judge all)

I have no opinion on McMansions but I hate new housing developments because they don't have enough trees.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Like I said, I hope these ARE mythical. But some people just have a "it won't happen to me" outlook on life and act with very little concern for themselves or others.

We're never going to agree on this so I'll just chime in and say I hate McMansions also.

I understand what you mean. I know someone who's had four abortions