Should a conviction still be allowed to hold ex-felons back?

[Kevin]

Again, (shocker) I am going to take the minority position here, which is more than likely the majority position outside of GC.

Felons are felons for a reason. They did something bad and are branded as felons--something which is a part of their paying a debt to society.

As for voting, I have no problem discriminating against felons. By committing a felony, they forfeit their right to participate fully in it. They get no sympathy from me. How not being able to vote holds them back as some have suggested is an interesting concept. How does that hold them back? By creating a sub-class which doesn't have to be pandered to by politicians? Do you want your politicians pandering to felons? Not me.

As far as hiring practices go, every employer who places an employee into a situation where trust is a factor has a strong interest in knowing that individual's background. To that end, that employer needs to be able to know whether it's hiring former felons. Felons are more likely to steal and get an employer sued, so a smart employer absolutely will discriminate here. It's a matter of self-preservation. For a small business, if you hire a known violent felon who then assaults and injures a customer, that could very easily mean bankruptcy.

And for every felon who is discriminated against, a non-felon gets that job--someone who hasn't strayed from the straight and narrow, or at least hasn't been caught.

[33girl]

Well, if we're going to start saying who does and doesn't have the right to vote, I say we keep the idiotic women who use abortion as birth control out of the voting booth. They're not smart enough to take a pill or stick a diaphragm in, why on earth should they have the right to vote? (No, I don't mean women who have an abortion because of an unplanned pregnancy, I mean those who get abortions over and over again and NEVER use birth control.)

Obviously this will never happen, but that's how silly the not-being-allowed-to-vote thing sounds to me. I honestly never knew that, and think it's ridiculous. If you've done your time and paid your debt, you should be allowed to vote. (Not to mention I'm going to wager that there are former prisoners who are HELLA more informed about the issues/candidates up for election than the average voter.)

If you're going to make a person keep paying and keep paying even after they finish a sentence that society has deemed "payment" why even let them out of jail in the first place? The reason the recidivism rate is so high is because we make it so hard for convicts to reassimilate into society. If we as a society don't believe that people can be "rehabilitated" we should probably stop playing that we do.

[Kevin]

You think it's society's fault that criminals reoffend? Do they lack free will or something?

[DrPhil]

As for Kevin's first post:
That's because the criminal justice system and general public are incapacitation and retribution oriented and not rehabilitation and reintegration oriented. There are pros and cons in the incapacitation and retribution approaches.

Societies should punish the offenders but think about what happens when they are released from prison. Who will they be around and what will they be doing? It's wiser to offer counseling for those who need it, intervention, job training, educational assistance. Those are all worthy investments if you're interested in slowing the revolving door of the prison system. There will ALWAYS be crime and inmates so the prison system will never lose customers and money in that regard. We simply don't need to waste money and resources on the same inmates over and over again; and we don't need the age, race, and socioeconomic demographic that is largely represented in the prison system. Society doesn't want to address the socioeconomic issues that lead some to commit instrumental crimes to make money in the first place, and Americans don't want to address how to reintegrate people into society and reduce recidivism. You either have to address the issue beforehand, during, or afterwards. You can't escape the issue and pretend that you can lock people up with no thought to what happens after sentencing.

A smart America would see how investing in OUR future isn't synonymous with giving offenders a free ride. They repay their debt to society while incarcerated (well, actually, the majority of offenders create their own society, smuggle contraband, and learn how to become a "better criminal"--these people are also more likely to reoffend) and they will continue to repay their debt IF they get jobs and pay taxes.

Dammit.

As for Kevins second post:
I believe in free will combined with social factors. Life is too complex to pretend as though it is one or the other. Having free will doesn't mean there aren't contexts more conducive to certain types of offenses. Social factors don't mean that everyone who is poor, for instance, becomes an offender--most poor people aren't offenders.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Kevin

You think it's society's fault that criminals reoffend? Do they lack free will or something?

If every place you went to get a job immediately trashed your application, don't you think that would make you inclined to just say "fuck it" and find food/clothing/$$/shelter by any means necessary?

Oh, but that will NEVER happen to you, so it's a moot point.

[sweetmagnolia]

Originally Posted by Kevin

As for voting, I have no problem discriminating against felons. By committing a felony, they forfeit their right to participate fully in it. They get no sympathy from me. How not being able to vote holds them back as some have suggested is an interesting concept. How does that hold them back? By creating a sub-class which doesn't have to be pandered to by politicians? Do you want your politicians pandering to felons? Not me.

It holds them back because they have no say in how their county, state or country is governed. It'd be one thing if this was the case of a single man, or a handful of ex-felons, but the amount of ex-felons in a state like California or New York could change the outcome of elections.

Again, from the Washington Post article:

"...last year Alabama Republican Party Chairman Marty Connors stated a bald truth: "As frank as I can be," he said, "we're opposed to [restoring voting rights] because felons don't tend to vote Republican." He is right: People with low incomes, low education or minority status -- all benchmarks of convict populations -- vote Democratic 65 to 90 percent of the time.

Another bald fact: Many disenfranchisement laws trace to the mid-1800s, when they were crafted to bar blacks with even minor criminal records from polls. Today this poisonous legal lineage tells not only in the South, which retains the most repressive statutes, but in states such as New York, where ex-parolees theoretically get their rights back but in reality encounter local election officials who demand discharge papers that don't exist, give misleading information and find other reasons to turn them away. A class-action lawsuit in New York charges that this system bars so many voters in high-crime neighborhoods that the districts effectively have lost their voice. In Florida, where many felons are barred forever unless the governor personally decides otherwise, 8 percent of adults cannot vote -- including one in four black men."

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by Kevin

As far as hiring practices go, every employer who places an employee into a situation where trust is a factor has a strong interest in knowing that individual's background. To that end, that employer needs to be able to know whether it's hiring former felons.

That's what background checks are for. There's no need to ask for this kind of information on the application though.

Felons are more likely to steal and get an employer sued, so a smart employer absolutely will discriminate here.

Show me the stats. I would have agreed with you if you had said felons who are not gainfully employed are more likely to steal and so forth.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That's because the criminal justice system and general public are incapacitation and retribution oriented and not rehabilitation and reintegration oriented...Society doesn't want to address the socioeconomic issues that lead some to commit instrumental crimes to make money in the first place, and Americans don't want to address how to reintegrate people into society and reduce recidivism...A smart America would see how investing in OUR future isn't synonymous with giving offenders a free ride.

I dedicate my next five heartbeats to you. You're awesome.

Originally Posted by 33girl

If every place you went to get a job immediately trashed your application, don't you think that would make you inclined to just say "fuck it" and find food/clothing/$$/shelter by any means necessary?

Oh, but that will NEVER happen to you, so it's a moot point.

Of course, because only guilty people go to prison. Oh...wait.

Originally Posted by sweetmagnolia

Many disenfranchisement laws trace to the mid-1800s, when they were crafted to bar blacks with even minor criminal records from polls. Today this poisonous legal lineage tells not only in the South, which retains the most repressive statutes, but in states such as New York, where ex-parolees theoretically get their rights back but in reality encounter local election officials who demand discharge papers that don't exist, give misleading information and find other reasons to turn them away. A class-action lawsuit in New York charges that this system bars so many voters in high-crime neighborhoods that the districts effectively have lost their voice. In Florida, where many felons are barred forever unless the governor personally decides otherwise, 8 percent of adults cannot vote -- including one in four black men."

Thumbs up.

[DaemonSeid]

If you have been deemed reformed by the system, why should it matter? If, say a bank robbery took place 30 years ago and that person has lived an upright life since, should that person be chained to that? Or...Should there be a statute of limitations to how long a person should still be held accountable for a crime?

HMmm

[als463]

I'm half and half on this issue. Would I want to work next to a rapist? No. Do I think "CERTAIN" convictions deserve a second chance? Yes. I work with people (Patients) who may possibly have drug convictions. It's heartbreaking to me to see some young kids/ adults come out of prison for selling marijuana and now they can't find a job. It sucks for them. Sure, they made a mistake but, if we are going to try and help them, let them work. I have a strong belief that we should help rehabilitate people before just turning them away or locking them up...for "CERTAIN" offenses. Sex offenders, now that is a different story.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by als463

I'm half and half on this issue. Would I want to work next to a rapist? No. Do I think "CERTAIN" convictions deserve a second chance? Yes. I work with people (Patients) who may possibly have drug convictions. It's heartbreaking to me to see some young kids/ adults come out of prison for selling marijuana and now they can't find a job. It sucks for them. Sure, they made a mistake but, if we are going to try and help them, let them work. I have a strong belief that we should help rehabilitate people before just turning them away or locking them up...for "CERTAIN" offenses. Sex offenders, now that is a different story.

Problem with sex offenders is this:

To what degree are you talking? You have people that may have some naked pics on their phone and get labeled and lumped in right along with people who are out and out bonafide pedophiles...so how do you make the distinction?

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by als463

Sex offenders, now that is a different story.

Interesting you bring this up. For those who believe that it's unconstitutional to ask applicants if they've had prior convictions, how do you feel about sex offenders having to register as such?

[als463]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Problem with sex offenders is this:

To what degree are you talking? You have people that may have some naked pics on their phone and get labeled and lumped in right along with people who are out and out bonafide pedophiles...so how do you make the distinction?

Oh, no...I agree with that. There is a difference between a guy who is a complete pedophile and a kid who got in trouble for dating a 16 year-old girl, when he was 18 years-old because the girl's mom and dad didn't like him very much. If you are a Megan's Offender, which is the harshest of the harsh sex offenders, then in my eyes, you shouldn't leave prison. I have little tolerance for sex offenders.

As far as some young kid who got mixed up with the wrong crowd and sold drugs, I think he (or she, I'm not stereotyping) should get a second chance.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Problem with sex offenders is this:

To what degree are you talking? You have people that may have some naked pics on their phone and get labeled and lumped in right along with people who are out and out bonafide pedophiles...so how do you make the distinction?

That's why there's a problem with the designation "felons" in general. There are things considered felonies that would give someone pause about their safety, and there are things, like embezzlement, that the person who did them might not be the least bit violent.

[als463]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Interesting you bring this up. For those who believe that it's unconstitutional to ask applicants if they've had prior convictions, how do you feel about sex offenders having to register as such?

Sorry, I didn't see this until later. I don't think it is unconstitutional to want to know someone's past. I think that getting a background check on someone should be standard. If you are afraid of what might come up, then maybe you shouldn't be hired. As former military with a Top Secret/ SCI clearance, I have nothing in my past to be afraid to share. I think they should do background checks on people working from McDonald's all the way up the chain to other Corporate careers. I don't have children but, I'd be pretty upset if my teenage daughter was flipping burgers after school, right next to a sex offender. No thanks!

[33girl]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

So if some felonies are weighted more than others, should employers even ask if the candidate have a criminal background? I know there is the felony box, but isn't there an area below it asking if you have a criminal history, please explain?

I think what happens in some cases is if there are lots of applicants, the hirer just breezes through and sees if that box is checked "yes" or "no." If it's yes - file 13.