Feds to file lawsuit over Arizona immigration law

[starang21]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

But breaking a law multiple times is an offense that can get you arrested. There is a difference between acting as if breaking an immigration law is not a big deal and the end of the world. I agree that there is a problem with illegal immigration, but vilifying these people is not the solution. Going on and on and on about how they broke the law is dumb, IMHO.

no, that's stating a fact. illegal immigration isn't contributing to the overall wellness of this country like many seem to believe. there's 330 million americans, and 12 million illegals. it's a drop in the bucket overall. but they don't deserve amnesty.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by starang21

people are pulled over. and given speeding tickets. and just because many folks aren't, that doesn't mean that illegals should be given amnesty. so your comparison is poor.

Originally Posted by starang21

no, that's stating a fact. illegal immigration isn't contributing to the overall wellness of this country like many seem to believe. there's 330 million americans, and 12 million illegals. it's a drop in the bucket overall. but they don't deserve amnesty.

Uh huh, and where exactly did you see me say that we should offer them amnesty? Good try. Yes, people are pulled over and given speeding tickets. People are also caught and sent back to their countries of origin. The difference is that we don't run around screaming that the speeders are CRIMINALS. Do you see the point I was making now? If you don't, you are trying really hard not to.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Uh huh, and where exactly did you see me say that we should offer them amnesty? Good try. Yes, people are pulled over and given speeding tickets. People are also caught and sent back to their countries of origin. The difference is that we don't run around screaming that the speeders are CRIMINALS. Do you see the point I was making now? If you don't, you are trying really hard not to.

that's the converation me and pika2001 were having when you chimed in. who cares if we don't run screaming around that speeders are criminals? people make an issue on what they want to make an issue about. just because folks don't make an issue about speeders, doesnt' mean they can't make an issue about illegal immigration. if you want, you can start up a thread on speeders. this one is about illegal immigration.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by starang21

that's the converation me and pika2001 were having when you chimed in. who cares if we don't run screaming around that speeders are criminals? people make an issue on what they want to make an issue about. just because folks don't make an issue about speeders, doesnt' mean they can't make an issue about illegal immigration. if you want, you can start up a thread on speeders. this one is about illegal immigration.

She's saying that treating illegal or undocumented immigrants as universally criminals and nigh subhuman is the problem. Everyone who speeds breaks the law but we don't villianize "speeders." Hell society doesn't villianize drunk drivers in some places either. Villianizing, or "othering" illegal immigrants leads to knee-jerk laws that typically don't solve the problem.

The options aren't only "Amnesty and nothing else" or "Kick them all out" either.

Personally I think we need to reform immigration, see the link I posted, there's a reason why "getting back in line" isn't effective. Whether that means making the hiring process easier, so that employers can/will sponsor more, or whether we add more "basic labor" positions to the immigration code, I'm not sure. We need to pass the DREAM act. We need to grant citizenship to immigrants who have been working, living, otherwise contributing to our economy. And we need to crack down on employers who hire under the table and exploit their employees (and typically subsequently abuse them).

But you can't expect to do part of it without doing all of it.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

She's saying that treating illegal or undocumented immigrants as universally criminals and nigh subhuman is the problem. Everyone who speeds breaks the law but we don't villianize "speeders." Hell society doesn't villianize drunk drivers in some places either. Villianizing, or "othering" illegal immigrants leads to knee-jerk laws that typically don't solve the problem.

The options aren't only "Amnesty and nothing else" or "Kick them all out" either.

Personally I think we need to reform immigration, see the link I posted, there's a reason why "getting back in line" isn't effective. Whether that means making the hiring process easier, so that employers can/will sponsor more, or whether we add more "basic labor" positions to the immigration code, I'm not sure. We need to pass the DREAM act. We need to grant citizenship to immigrants who have been working, living, otherwise contributing to our economy. And we need to crack down on employers who hire under the table and exploit their employees (and typically subsequently abuse them).

But you can't expect to do part of it without doing all of it.

people will react and villanize who and what they want to villanize. someone might view armed robbery as not a big deal, but will view jay walking as a big deal. and that's their prerogative and their issue.

just because folks don't make a big deal about speeding, drunk driving, or drug use and choose to make a big deal about illegal immigration, doesn't mean that the former offences aren't a big deal to someone else.

i comment on illegal immigration. we're in an illegal immigration thread. does that mean that i should have the same level of opinion in a thread regarding tax evasion? no.

i don't know what about the immigration process that needs reforming. and no one has been able to say what's wrong with the process. just because folks bypass the process, doesn't mean the process is wrong.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by starang21

i don't know what about the immigration process that needs reforming. and no one has been able to say what's wrong with the process. just because folks bypass the process, doesn't mean the process is wrong.

Well . . . the majority of people would rather go through the arduous, expensive and dangerous process of crossing illegally instead of using the established legal process. That pretty much indicates the legal process is broken, by definition - it clearly is not working in the intended fashion.

It seems pretty clear there has to be a better way. Whether or not the process is "wrong" is irrelevant at that point (indeed, it seems that immigration policy was intended for European/Asian immigration and educational opportunity, and not low-income immigration).

As far as what needs fixing, it seems similarly clear that there are two fundamental angles of attack that need to form the basis of any reform:

1 - End the system of employers essentially enforcing immigration policy by proxy - employers have no incentive to enforce, and actually have disincentive (cheap labor, tax burden, etc.).

2 - Shift the risk/reward axis to give better incentive to legal entry rather than illegal entry, whether that is by establishing a new, "temporary worker working toward citizenship" class or whatever other method.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Well . . . the majority of people would rather go through the arduous, expensive and dangerous process of crossing illegally instead of using the established legal process. That pretty much indicates the legal process is broken, by definition - it clearly is not working in the intended fashion.

It seems pretty clear there has to be a better way. Whether or not the process is "wrong" is irrelevant at that point (indeed, it seems that immigration policy was intended for European/Asian immigration and educational opportunity, and not low-income immigration).

As far as what needs fixing, it seems similarly clear that there are two fundamental angles of attack that need to form the basis of any reform:

1 - End the system of employers essentially enforcing immigration policy by proxy - employers have no incentive to enforce, and actually have disincentive (cheap labor, tax burden, etc.).

2 - Shift the risk/reward axis to give better incentive to legal entry rather than illegal entry, whether that is by establishing a new, "temporary worker working toward citizenship" class or whatever other method.

being illegal is a quick fix. can it be streamlined? likely. can a lot of red tape be removed? likely.

but no matter how short you make it, coming here illegally will always be easier and quicker. we can wax philosophical on what exactly about the process needs to be changed, but the fact of the matter is that many people would rather cross the rio grande than file the paper work.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by starang21

people will react and villanize who and what they want to villanize. someone might view armed robbery as not a big deal, but will view jay walking as a big deal. and that's their prerogative and their issue.

just because folks don't make a big deal about speeding, drunk driving, or drug use and choose to make a big deal about illegal immigration, doesn't mean that the former offences aren't a big deal to someone else.

i comment on illegal immigration. we're in an illegal immigration thread. does that mean that i should have the same level of opinion in a thread regarding tax evasion? no.

i don't know what about the immigration process that needs reforming. and no one has been able to say what's wrong with the process. just because folks bypass the process, doesn't mean the process is wrong.

The point is not that we're not taking speeding seriously in this thread. Or tax evasion. Or anything. It's not about being "soft on crime" or "not caring about illegal immigration." It's about not dehumanizing people, or villianizing to the point where you write laws based on fear instead of facts. I don't know how you're continuing to miss this point.

This is what is wrong with the process: http://lafinjack.net/images/random/immigration.jpg

It takes decades, it is incredibly expensive, and nearly impossible if you're the average person from Mexico. In the meantime, it's cheaper to pay a coyote, even if it's more dangerous, and you can find work here. If you don't fix both sides, the difficulty getting in as well as the incentives to come illegally, you won't solve the problem.

If you don't know what's wrong with immigration then you're probably not going to be able to talk about the issue of illegal immigration on any level other than "throw them out" because you're lacking the basic understanding of why they're here illegally in the first place. Most illegal immigrants aren't rampant law breakers and wouldn't just be kicking around the US with a fake ID if they had other options.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

The point is not It's about not dehumanizing people, or villianizing to the point where you write laws based on fear instead of facts.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

She's saying that treating illegal or undocumented immigrants as universally criminals and nigh subhuman is the problem.

really?

people will villanize what they want to villanize. and people are entitled to villanize who and what they want. whatever they're passionate about. and just because (by your definition of dehumanization), them villanizing people is dehumanizing them, doesn't mean that it's they (by their definition of dehumanizing) think they're dehumanizing them. your definition of dehumanizing is likely different from my definition of dehumanizing.

so the us doesn't want unskilled labor. it wants people with talent. ok, so?

i understand why they're here illegally. does that mean i think the immigration process is flawed? no.

is it the process's fault that illegal immigrants choose to bypass it? no.

i also understand the process which one undertakes to become an immigrant. does that mean i think there's something wrong with the process? no.

me thinking there's nothing wrong with the process doesn't mean i don't understand the process.