Living-in vs Living-out

[fantASTic]

I lived in and liked it. However, I do have a major problem with a LOT of house/Panhellenic (local and national) rules with them. I think it's shameful that adults can't drink a glass of wine with dinner. I think it's shameful that we as consenting adults (who had our own separate bedrooms) could not have boyfriends or fiances spend the night. I think it's contrary to the goals of helping us be strong, independent women, and...it just bugs me. We're adults. Treat us like it.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by fantASTic

I lived in and liked it. However, I do have a major problem with a LOT of house/Panhellenic (local and national) rules with them. I think it's shameful that adults can't drink a glass of wine with dinner. I think it's shameful that we as consenting adults (who had our own separate bedrooms) could not have boyfriends or fiances spend the night. I think it's contrary to the goals of helping us be strong, independent women, and...it just bugs me. We're adults. Treat us like it.

I think it falls under the "the system's been abused and now we have to buy insurance so you're all following the strict rules even if you are mature enough to behave" thing.


I lived on our sorority's floor for one year (which was about average for us). I had fun, but the fact that they were single rooms and I tended not to go out on the weekends meant that living in the on and off campus apartments later was better for me. Most of us got apartments with our sisters and until res-life changed the rules we had been able to pass the on-campus apartments down year by year.

Our floor was actually split between three chapters. The fraternities who wanted the spots were on alternate floors and we had one co-ed floor. I will say, living with the guys in the building led to WAY too many fire alarm pulls and several incidents of penis-on-wall-with-sharpie.

Overall though, definitely worthwhile for all of us.

[fantASTic]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I think it falls under the "the system's been abused and now we have to buy insurance so you're all following the strict rules even if you are mature enough to behave" thing.

Oh, I know you're right. But the angry feminist in me says that it's ridiculous that women are being told that if we want to drink, we have to go to someone ELSE'S house. We have to leave our own home to have a beverage which in many areas of the world is put on the dinner table as a matter of course to even children. The double standard and the very idea that it's totally fine to shack up in a bunk house with 60 sleeping men around you but NOT okay for you to have a fiance in your bedroom is really UNBELIEVABLE. We're modern day women, women who have the ability to know when we've drank too much, know when we're making bad decisions and accept the consequences of that behavior. I am not arguing that we should throw parties; I think that's unacceptable just because it's a danger to the house itself. But it cannot possibly be argued that it is unladylike or inappropriate for a woman to have a drink or two while hanging out with friends.

The idea that drinking in letters is inappropriate bothers me too, while I'm on this tangent...men do it. It's encouraged for them. But for us? Nope. Not allowed. It's a big deal! Why? Maybe we should be looking at the specific instances in which it is a big deal, many of which don't involve drinking, instead of just randomly banning it across all boards. Again - nothing wrong with a sorority woman wearing a lavalier having a drink with dinner. Yet that in itself is demonized?

We would be a lot better off if we simply said "No behavior that may negatively impact the house" and let judicial boards deal with that as they see fit. The fact that the NPC, which is supposed to be supporting us and encouraging us to grow into strong, independent women, is not only supporting but actually masterminding this effort is unbelievable. It's a smack in the face to the independence of young women and our ability to see ourselves as equal in ALL regards to our male counterparts.

And I DON'T see how the insurance applies to men in the house. AST nationally is fine with that, but like many campuses, my alma mater made it a campus Panhellenic rule that it is not allowed because other sororities can't do it.

[sydney bristow]

Originally Posted by fantASTic

Oh, I know you're right. But the angry feminist in me says that it's ridiculous that women are being told that if we want to drink, we have to go to someone ELSE'S house. We have to leave our own home to have a beverage which in many areas of the world is put on the dinner table as a matter of course to even children. The double standard and the very idea that it's totally fine to shack up in a bunk house with 60 sleeping men around you but NOT okay for you to have a fiance in your bedroom is really UNBELIEVABLE. We're modern day women, women who have the ability to know when we've drank too much, know when we're making bad decisions and accept the consequences of that behavior. I am not arguing that we should throw parties; I think that's unacceptable just because it's a danger to the house itself. But it cannot possibly be argued that it is unladylike or inappropriate for a woman to have a drink or two while hanging out with friends.

The idea that drinking in letters is inappropriate bothers me too, while I'm on this tangent...men do it. It's encouraged for them. But for us? Nope. Not allowed. It's a big deal! Why? Maybe we should be looking at the specific instances in which it is a big deal, many of which don't involve drinking, instead of just randomly banning it across all boards. Again - nothing wrong with a sorority woman wearing a lavalier having a drink with dinner. Yet that in itself is demonized?

We would be a lot better off if we simply said "No behavior that may negatively impact the house" and let judicial boards deal with that as they see fit. The fact that the NPC, which is supposed to be supporting us and encouraging us to grow into strong, independent women, is not only supporting but actually masterminding this effort is unbelievable. It's a smack in the face to the independence of young women and our ability to see ourselves as equal in ALL regards to our male counterparts.

And I DON'T see how the insurance applies to men in the house. AST nationally is fine with that, but like many campuses, my alma mater made it a campus Panhellenic rule that it is not allowed because other sororities can't do it.

I love you. The angry feminist in me wants to be your campaign manager.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by fantASTic

Oh, I know you're right. But the angry feminist in me says that it's ridiculous that women are being told that if we want to drink, we have to go to someone ELSE'S house. We have to leave our own home to have a beverage which in many areas of the world is put on the dinner table as a matter of course to even children. The double standard and the very idea that it's totally fine to shack up in a bunk house with 60 sleeping men around you but NOT okay for you to have a fiance in your bedroom is really UNBELIEVABLE. We're modern day women, women who have the ability to know when we've drank too much, know when we're making bad decisions and accept the consequences of that behavior. I am not arguing that we should throw parties; I think that's unacceptable just because it's a danger to the house itself. But it cannot possibly be argued that it is unladylike or inappropriate for a woman to have a drink or two while hanging out with friends.

The idea that drinking in letters is inappropriate bothers me too, while I'm on this tangent...men do it. It's encouraged for them. But for us? Nope. Not allowed. It's a big deal! Why? Maybe we should be looking at the specific instances in which it is a big deal, many of which don't involve drinking, instead of just randomly banning it across all boards. Again - nothing wrong with a sorority woman wearing a lavalier having a drink with dinner. Yet that in itself is demonized?

We would be a lot better off if we simply said "No behavior that may negatively impact the house" and let judicial boards deal with that as they see fit. The fact that the NPC, which is supposed to be supporting us and encouraging us to grow into strong, independent women, is not only supporting but actually masterminding this effort is unbelievable. It's a smack in the face to the independence of young women and our ability to see ourselves as equal in ALL regards to our male counterparts.

And I DON'T see how the insurance applies to men in the house. AST nationally is fine with that, but like many campuses, my alma mater made it a campus Panhellenic rule that it is not allowed because other sororities can't do it.

Which would be fine if your decisions only impacted you, but, unfortunately, in a house with 30-40-50 women, those decisions impact more than just a single person. And, quite honestly, many 18-22-year-olds Don't know their limits. They Don't know or are willing to accept the consequences of their poor choices. Some do, but the vast majority don't. It's unfortunate, and it seems counterintuitive, but at the time, it's what has to be done.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by fantASTic

The idea that drinking in letters is inappropriate bothers me too, while I'm on this tangent...men do it. It's encouraged for them. But for us? Nope. Not allowed. It's a big deal! Why? Maybe we should be looking at the specific instances in which it is a big deal, many of which don't involve drinking, instead of just randomly banning it across all boards. Again - nothing wrong with a sorority woman wearing a lavalier having a drink with dinner. Yet that in itself is demonized?

FWIW, back in the day it was encouraged for women - as in, "if you wear your sorority letters you get into the fraternity party free and don't have to be on the guest list." #1, the guys didn't have to worry about offending a sorority woman they didn't know well by saying "who the eff are you?" #2, it was good publicity for women to meet rushees. #3, it's winter and it's effing cold, and letter sweatshirts are far more sensible than dry clean only hoochie wear. I mean, chapter consultants saw us go off to parties in letters and said nothing, in fact wore letters to parties themselves. But off that tangent. I still say all these "OMG NOT IN LETTERS" rules came about when pledging got easier. Whether they're related or just a coincidence, I'm not really sure.

fantASTic - I thought your campus was similar to mine and the houses were smaller? Anyhoo, I do think the "a 21 year old can't drink A beer" is stupid in any size dwelling, but I can understand the no shacking rules in a large house. It's one thing to have 16 girls and all know each other well enough to know what is and isn't permissible. It's another to live with 60 girls, not all of whom you are close to. The way I look at it is...that's like a dorm. We were allowed to shack in dorms, but only on certain nights and we had to keep an eye on our male guests (and vice versa) at all times.

Then again, there seems to be a lot less understanding going around these days. One of my dorm-mates basically had her boyfriend living in her room - I can't remember why, but I think he had some sort of issues with his living situation. They were always respectful and no one on the floor complained or told the RA because we felt bad that he was stuck. I just can't see that happening today - people are much quicker to fink on their fellow man.

[fantASTic]

Originally Posted by 33girl

FWIW, back in the day it was encouraged for women - as in, "if you wear your sorority letters you get into the fraternity party free and don't have to be on the guest list." #1, the guys didn't have to worry about offending a sorority woman they didn't know well by saying "who the eff are you?" #2, it was good publicity for women to meet rushees. #3, it's winter and it's effing cold, and letter sweatshirts are far more sensible than dry clean only hoochie wear. I mean, chapter consultants saw us go off to parties in letters and said nothing, in fact wore letters to parties themselves. But off that tangent. I still say all these "OMG NOT IN LETTERS" rules came about when pledging got easier. Whether they're related or just a coincidence, I'm not really sure.

fantASTic - I thought your campus was similar to mine and the houses were smaller? Anyhoo, I do think the "a 21 year old can't drink A beer" is stupid in any size dwelling, but I can understand the no shacking rules in a large house. It's one thing to have 16 girls and all know each other well enough to know what is and isn't permissible. It's another to live with 60 girls, not all of whom you are close to. The way I look at it is...that's like a dorm. We were allowed to shack in dorms, but only on certain nights and we had to keep an eye on our male guests (and vice versa) at all times.

Then again, there seems to be a lot less understanding going around these days. One of my dorm-mates basically had her boyfriend living in her room - I can't remember why, but I think he had some sort of issues with his living situation. They were always respectful and no one on the floor complained or told the RA because we felt bad that he was stuck. I just can't see that happening today - people are much quicker to fink on their fellow man.

I've no idea if it's related to the new pledge rules; I wasn't around during the change. But I just think we should be treating ourselves and our collegiate sisters as adults - not as small children.

As for the shacking, I think it should be left up to individual chapters to decide based on living arrangements. Example: if all girls have their own bedrooms, or their roommate is out of town and does not mind, I do not see the problem. I also don't see a problem with the "certain nights only" or "only so many days a month" rule; I think those are actually good peacekeeping rules.

My campus is medium-sized. Average chapter size is around 80.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by fantASTic

I've no idea if it's related to the new pledge rules; I wasn't around during the change. But I just think we should be treating ourselves and our collegiate sisters as adults - not as small children.

As for the shacking, I think it should be left up to individual chapters to decide based on living arrangements. Example: if all girls have their own bedrooms, or their roommate is out of town and does not mind, I do not see the problem. I also don't see a problem with the "certain nights only" or "only so many days a month" rule; I think those are actually good peacekeeping rules.

My campus is medium-sized. Average chapter size is around 80.

I think it depends on the school. Since our chapter house was campus housing within the Greek quad, campus rules overrode sorority rules. As I've mentioned before, my college is notoriously lenient and there weren't any shacking rules since it was technically a dorm. We did have a stipulation saying that men weren't allowed in chapter-specific rooms, which I still don't understand. No one complained about shacking, even in the case of the chapter president my sophomore year, whose boyfriend basically lived in the house.

[PiPhiERDoc]

Rules about men not being in the house also have some very practical safety reasons behind them.

If you live in a chapter house that holds 50+ women, good chance that you will not know everyone's male friends/boyfriends ect. So you will think nothing about some random guy wandering the halls, right? And what happens if that guy is actually NOT a guest, but has broken into the house with the intent of assaulting a woman?

This has happened at many campuses, including a series of sexual assaults that happened at Washington State University exactly because of this scenerio, ie women not complying with their man-hour rules, women in the house becoming used to seeing random guys around, and not being able to recognize someone who shouldn't have been there until their sister was assaulted.

There are also all kinds of theft and property damage issues...plus insurance premiums...

[MUSK81]

Originally Posted by fantASTic

Oh, I
The idea that drinking in letters is inappropriate bothers me too, while I'm on this tangent...men do it. It's encouraged for them. But for us? Nope. Not allowed. It's a big deal! Why? Maybe we should be looking at the specific instances in which it is a big deal, many of which don't involve drinking, instead of just randomly banning it across all boards. Again - nothing wrong with a sorority woman wearing a lavalier having a drink with dinner. Yet that in itself is demonized?

We never had a problem with drinking in letters, but we were not allowed to drink while wearing our badges or anything with our coat-of-arms.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MUSK81

We never had a problem with drinking in letters, but we were not allowed to drink while wearing our badges or anything with our coat-of-arms.

It's a local rule. We weren't supposed to be drinking in our letters at all on my campus. But there's nothing 'wrong' with it.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by MUSK81

We never had a problem with drinking in letters, but we were not allowed to drink while wearing our badges or anything with our coat-of-arms.

I remember going up to a (newly initiated) sister of XYZ at a party right before break and saying "NICE CREST." She looked soooooooo scared. Oh the LOLZ memories.