Infraction stories

[MaggieXi]

I have never understood if your national orgnization and your campus greek life office want sororities to promote greek life, then why are you not allowed to speak to freshman women prior to recruitment. It just seems counter-productive.

By not allowing the freshman women to get to know the sorority members in anyway, and limiting the sorority members to "Hi" it almost perpetuates the stereotype of sorority members being bitchy or elitest.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MaggieXi

I have never understood if your national orgnization and your campus greek life office want sororities to promote greek life, then why are you not allowed to speak to freshman women prior to recruitment. It just seems counter-productive.

By not allowing the freshman women to get to know the sorority members in anyway, and limiting the sorority members to "Hi" it almost perpetuates the stereotype of sorority members being bitchy or elitest.

But if you let them really "get to know" the freshmen then you've opened up the doors for a lot of dirty rushing. I agree that if it's a deferred rush a semester long silence is just silly, but for the first 2 weeks or so it's manageable. And we typically wore letters the WHOLE time so it was really obvious that we weren't just ignoring someone in class for kicks.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

But if you let them really "get to know" the freshmen then you've opened up the doors for a lot of dirty rushing. I agree that if it's a deferred rush a semester long silence is just silly, but for the first 2 weeks or so it's manageable. And we typically wore letters the WHOLE time so it was really obvious that we weren't just ignoring someone in class for kicks.

No, you haven't. The freshmen get to know the sorority women as normal people, not as some sort of superhuman being. That's the whole point. If sorority members don't go out and try to meet women on their own, that's their problem.

Are some people going to shitty things like promise bids? Probably. But I personally think the solution lies in educating the rushees - i.e. telling them that people who do that are bad people and should be taken with a grain of salt. If you can tell them that women aren't talking to them because of silence rules, and expect them to understand that, you can just as easily tell them what is and isn't dirty rushing and expect them to understand that as well.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

No, you haven't. The freshmen get to know the sorority women as normal people, not as some sort of superhuman being. That's the whole point. If sorority members don't go out and try to meet women on their own, that's their problem.

Are some people going to shitty things like promise bids? Probably. But I personally think the solution lies in educating the rushees - i.e. telling them that people who do that are bad people and should be taken with a grain of salt. If you can tell them that women aren't talking to them because of silence rules, and expect them to understand that, you can just as easily tell them what is and isn't dirty rushing and expect them to understand that as well.

lane swerver alert/

Your response reminds me of what some people said in response to the NPHC ban on "pledging" in 1990, which is that something shouldn't be banned just because some people will violate basic guidelines. Instead of banning something altogether, have certain guidelines and educate the pledges and members about what to look out for and the proper channels to take if there's even a hint of a violation.

However, while that makes good darn sense, it doesn't really work that way most of the time and that's why certain rules and bans were implemented in the first place. Our organizations have to protect themselves from what can possibly happen with thousands of members within hundreds of collegiate and alumnae chapters.

/lane swerver alert

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

lane swerver alert/

Your response reminds me of what some people said in response to the NPHC ban on "pledging" in 1990, which is that something shouldn't be banned just because some people will violate basic guidelines. Instead of banning something altogether, have certain guidelines and educate the pledges and members about what to look out for and the proper channels to take if there's even a hint of a violation.

However, while that makes good darn sense, it doesn't really work that way most of the time and that's why certain rules and bans were implemented in the first place. Our organizations have to protect themselves from what can possibly happen with thousands of members within hundreds of collegiate and alumnae chapters.

/lane swerver alert

Yes, but here's the thing.

As far as comparing Betty Beta promising Rhoda Rushee a bid to why the NPHC got rid of pledging, it really is apples and oranges.

Even with having rush first thing on campus, dirty rushing STILL gets done. Read any of the SEC or Texas threads. The point is that making ridiculous rules (like not talking to any freshmen) and excessive tattling doesn't curtail dirty rushing if the mindset of the campus is "get the best rushees and the most rushees, no matter what the cost."

Not to mention - the penalties for dirty rushing are usually monetary. The biggest and most cutthroat systems/chapters simply set aside money to pay the fines they know they'll incur. People don't lose their chapters or get kicked off Panhel for this, unless drugs or alcohol are involved.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Yes, but here's the thing.

As far as comparing Betty Beta promising Rhoda Rushee a bid to why the NPHC got rid of pledging, it really is apples and oranges.

Even with having rush first thing on campus, dirty rushing STILL gets done. Read any of the SEC or Texas threads. The point is that making ridiculous rules (like not talking to any freshmen) and excessive tattling doesn't curtail dirty rushing if the mindset of the campus is "get the best rushees and the most rushees, no matter what the cost."

Not to mention - the penalties for dirty rushing are usually monetary. The biggest and most cutthroat systems/chapters simply set aside money to pay the fines they know they'll incur. People don't lose their chapters or get kicked off Panhel for this, unless drugs or alcohol are involved.

Thanks for explaining. I was trying to compare the NPHC ban to the dirty rush rules of the NPC that include but aren't limited to bid promising. Such rules (and bans) exist but that doesn't stop "pledging" and dirty rushing from happening in some chapters. They still exist for what NHQs consider to be a valid reason.

Okay. *taking my apples and oranges and going home*

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Thanks for explaining. I was trying to compare the NPHC ban to the dirty rush rules of the NPC that include but aren't limited to bid promising. Such rules (and bans) exist but that doesn't stop "pledging" and dirty rushing from happening in some chapters. They still exist for what NHQs consider to be a valid reason.

Okay. *taking my apples and oranges and going home*

*kicks a stray apple at your back* Hee hee!

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

No, you haven't. The freshmen get to know the sorority women as normal people, not as some sort of superhuman being. That's the whole point. If sorority members don't go out and try to meet women on their own, that's their problem.

Are some people going to shitty things like promise bids? Probably. But I personally think the solution lies in educating the rushees - i.e. telling them that people who do that are bad people and should be taken with a grain of salt. If you can tell them that women aren't talking to them because of silence rules, and expect them to understand that, you can just as easily tell them what is and isn't dirty rushing and expect them to understand that as well.

But it's not in a PNM's interest report or ignore dirty rushing. A promised bid for them is a positive.

I think it would just lead to "enforced" getting to know the freshmen instead of silence and a lot more of the "buy drinks for the freshmen" sort of dirty rushing too. (When you're talking about non-deferred freshmen rush, not deferred or sophomore rush).

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

But it's not in a PNM's interest report or ignore dirty rushing. A promised bid for them is a positive.

A promised bid is not positive.

Yes, if the bid is promised and they actually wind up getting a bd there, then it is.

But more often than not, the member doing the promising doesn't REALLY know if said PNM will receive a bid. She has no clue how matching will play out.

I've heard many times of PNMs being bid promised at Pref, and getting a bid to a different chapter. It's a very heartbreaking situation, as the PNM essentially thought she was guaranteed to be an XYZ on Bid Night.

Then there's always the indirect promising that some members do without realizing. Example: "Can't want to see you tomorrow!" Said member doesn't know if she WILL see her tomorrow, and that can be taken as a promise as well.

[VandalSquirrel]

I also wish there was a way to address the idle gossip that is damaging; discussing a chapter closing when it isn't. To me that is just as bad as bid promising, and hurts the whole system.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

I also wish there was a way to address the idle gossip that is damaging; discussing a chapter closing when it isn't. To me that is just as bad as bid promising, and hurts the whole system.

When I was on campus, a chapter received some sanctions from their HQ which affected their social calendar.

Somehow, this led to PNMs thinking that this chapter was closing (no clue how that came to be). Girls were asking other PNMs in their groups and even girls in other chapters about it.

We were told by Panhellenic that if we were asked about their situation, to tactfully let PNMs know that all chapters were very strong and thriving. If asked any further, we were to let them know (tactfully) that we did not know the details and to ask the GA or one of their PXs.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

A promised bid is not positive.

Yes, if the bid is promised and they actually wind up getting a bd there, then it is.

But more often than not, the member doing the promising doesn't REALLY know if said PNM will receive a bid. She has no clue how matching will play out.

I've heard many times of PNMs being bid promised at Pref, and getting a bid to a different chapter. It's a very heartbreaking situation, as the PNM essentially thought she was guaranteed to be an XYZ on Bid Night.

Then there's always the indirect promising that some members do without realizing. Example: "Can't want to see you tomorrow!" Said member doesn't know if she WILL see her tomorrow, and that can be taken as a promise as well.

Right, but most PNMs think their promised bid is real as you said.

I'm talking though that if there weren't silence rules at all, sororities could essentially put together their bid list before round 1 and have promised said bids to the PNMs. We've seen how even on relatively non-competitive friendly campuses rush can turn chapters nasty. With the current national emphasis on numbers (because they're needed to stay competitive) I don't see a more relaxed even fraternity style rush working. As long as quota must be achieved or else it's going to be pretty cutthroat.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

But it's not in a PNM's interest report or ignore dirty rushing. A promised bid for them is a positive.

That's why I'm saying to impress upon them that it's NOT positive - that it's the equivalent of someone trying to scam you by selling you parking passes that are outdated, fake IDs or something of the like. Bid promisers = scammers. The End.

Also, I completely agree with VS's post. Rush was switched from deferred to allowing 1st semester freshmen several years after I left school. The GA's rationale was (I think these were her words) "we want to get them before they know any better." Needless to say, that mindset helped the whole system into the crapper as women who DIDN'T know any better joined in droves (and quit in droves after a year or two).

If what we are offering is as wonderful as we say it is, we need to throw out all the old cliches (it helps you adjust to school, if we don't have it now they'll join other things), give these women a chance to figure out who they are in this new world of theirs, and then welcome them into LIFETIME sisterhood.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

That's why I'm saying to impress upon them that it's NOT positive - that it's the equivalent of someone trying to scam you by selling you parking passes that are outdated, fake IDs or something of the like. Bid promisers = scammers. The End.

Also, I completely agree with VS's post. Rush was switched from deferred to allowing 1st semester freshmen several years after I left school. The GA's rationale was (I think these were her words) "we want to get them before they know any better." Needless to say, that mindset helped the whole system into the crapper as women who DIDN'T know any better joined in droves (and quit in droves after a year or two).

If what we are offering is as wonderful as we say it is, we need to throw out all the old cliches (it helps you adjust to school, if we don't have it now they'll join other things), give these women a chance to figure out who they are in this new world of theirs, and then welcome them into LIFETIME sisterhood.

If it's truly bid promising,(presuming a no-silence period rush) and not just lying to someone I'm not sure how it actually IS a scam. Just because you tell PNMs that doesn't mean it's true or that they're going to believe you.

I think revamping how we do formal recruitment would be good, but I don't think that changing silence without some system wide changes would be a change for the better.

[33girl]

One person cannot speak for an entire sorority. Therefore it is a scam. Easy peasy.

Many of these issues would go away if the national groups would take the focus off total and quota and put it onto retention instead. Throw out the award at convention for the chapter that made total for 60 years...start giving one for the chapter that has the lowest percentage of disaffiliated/inactive members in the biennium/triennium.