2009/2010 Risk Management Charter Revocations and Suspensions

[Sirfie1487]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

And as you yourself pointed out, this is a public website. As such we can discuss what we want. Also if you think nobody is speculating about this even at your own school, then you are dreaming.

Oh I'm sure people at my school are speculating, but if we are going to share information we want to make sure it is the correct information. Until then people can talk about what they think happened but, they'll never know what really happened... not even chapter members.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Sirfie1487

Oh I'm sure people at my school are speculating, but if we are going to share information we want to make sure it is the correct information. Until then people can talk about what they think happened but, they'll never know what really happened... not even chapter members.

Sirfie,

If you look at the regulations of Phi Mu, you'll find that Phi Mu gets to put out that information, not individuals from your chapter. This is pretty standard for all NPC organizations. That is why they put out the press release that you object to so vehemently. Unfortunately, as the elected leaders of the national organization, they, not you, get to decide how to explain the closure of Gamma Chi. I can assure you that no one takes the closure of a chapter lightly. They also don't like to spread around dirty laundry. That press release was very succinct. Leave it alone and just go away before you stir up more trouble than it's worth.

Panhellenically,
AOII Angel

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Leave it alone and just go away before you stir up more trouble than it's worth.

Panhellenically,
AOII Angel

Cheers to Dr. Angel.

[agzg]

Have we seen a "misuse of social media" issue before? I'd for one like to see how social networking sites play out in the closure of a chapter.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by agzg

Have we seen a "misuse of social media" issue before? I'd for one like to see how social networking sites play out in the closure of a chapter.

Yeah, I'm curious and suspecting inappropriate pictures/comments on facebook. But I get that my curiosity doesn't mean they have to say. At the same time the chapter's gag order doesn't mean we have one either.

[Sirfie1487]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Sirfie,

If you look at the regulations of Phi Mu, you'll find that Phi Mu gets to put out that information, not individuals from your chapter. This is pretty standard for all NPC organizations. That is why they put out the press release that you object to so vehemently. Unfortunately, as the elected leaders of the national organization, they, not you, get to decide how to explain the closure of Gamma Chi. I can assure you that no one takes the closure of a chapter lightly. They also don't like to spread around dirty laundry. That press release was very succinct. Leave it alone and just go away before you stir up more trouble than it's worth.

Panhellenically,
AOII Angel

I wasn't even aware that a press conference was released. So my bad. Like I said... there are a lot of things that members in the Chapter didn't know were going on.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Sirfie1487

I wasn't even aware that a press conference was released. So my bad. Like I said... there are a lot of things that members in the Chapter didn't know were going on.

I'm sure all of your sisters are hurting right now. Maybe in the fall, some of your older members could petition to get more specifics from your HQ. There are proper channels for this type of thing. Unfortunately, when 4 year suspensions are handed out, there are usually serious issues in play. It's especially sad when there are innocent members involved. I'm sure you guys would like some answers, but you may not actually get them. Realize, also, that people responsible for the sanction may not be forthcoming at this point. I certainly wouldn't be willing to come forward and risk the wrath of an entire chapter.

[Sirfie1487]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I'm sure all of your sisters are hurting right now. Maybe in the fall, some of your older members could petition to get more specifics from your HQ. There are proper channels for this type of thing. Unfortunately, when 4 year suspensions are handed out, there are usually serious issues in play. It's especially sad when there are innocent members involved. I'm sure you guys would like some answers, but you may not actually get them. Realize, also, that people responsible for the sanction may not be forthcoming at this point. I certainly wouldn't be willing to come forward and risk the wrath of an entire chapter.

Yeah something serious most have gone on. If many of us would have known what was going on we would have put a stop to it someway but, no one was aware of situations going on with certain people. I know I would have put a stop to it ASAP if I knew what was going on. But totally understandable if the people involved don't want to come forward. I'm a forgiving person and I understand people make decisions not so smart that punish other people as well. But at least in the long run everyone learns a lesson from it and become better people... or I would hope so anyway.

[als463]

Originally Posted by Sirfie1487

Yeah something serious most have gone on. If many of us would have known what was going on we would have put a stop to it someway but, no one was aware of situations going on with certain people. I know I would have put a stop to it ASAP if I knew what was going on. But totally understandable if the people involved don't want to come forward. I'm a forgiving person and I understand people make decisions not so smart that punish other people as well. But at least in the long run everyone learns a lesson from it and become better people... or I would hope so anyway.

In all honesty, I was just putting it out there (since we no longer have a chapter link on their Greek page-unless it has been fixed) that we are on probation. Do I agree with it? Maybe not. I have no idea what happened but, unless someone was sent to the hospital with alcohol poisoning or seriously hurt, I do believe that there are times International/ National Headquarters of ANY GLO tend to consider some minor things to be "hazing." If you've ever read the book "Wrongs of Passage" (shout out to narraht for pointing out that book to me-thanks) you'll see I'm right.

In fact, as an Iraq war veteran, myself, I find the one story in this book about Phi Mu at Widener to be very offensive. The "abuse" this woman endured does not, in my eyes, warrant a diagnosis of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. For those of you who haven't checked out the book, please do. It really is nothing more than a sensational piece.

I am sad when ANY Phi Mu chapter is shut down or put on probation so, please don't assume I don't care about this. I think the chapter at UNC-G is a great group of women and I hope they are able to go back, sometime soon.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by als463

If you've ever read the book "Wrongs of Passage" (shout out to narraht for pointing out that book to me-thanks) you'll see I'm right.

In fact, as an Iraq war veteran, myself, I find the one story in this book about Phi Mu at Widener to be very offensive. The "abuse" this woman endured does not, in my eyes, warrant a diagnosis of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. For those of you who haven't checked out the book, please do. It really is nothing more than a sensational piece.

I am sad when ANY Phi Mu chapter is shut down or put on probation so, please don't assume I don't care about this. I think the chapter at UNC-G is a great group of women and I hope they are able to go back, sometime soon.

I respect that you're a veteran, but PTSD doesn't require a certain level of abuse, it requires an experience that the individual finds traumatic and about a dozen other symptoms including flashbacks, avoidance, hypersensitivity to startle and feeling emotionally numbed It's one of the more complex diagnoses and the only one I found myself having to go back to the DSM-IV for to be sure I'd captured everything relevant.

TL;DR - What the book describes appears to be hazing. However saying the actions weren't "bad enough" to warrant PTSD is wrong.

[als463]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I respect that you're a veteran, but PTSD doesn't require a certain level of abuse, it requires an experience that the individual finds traumatic and about a dozen other symptoms including flashbacks, avoidance, hypersensitivity to startle and feeling emotionally numbed It's one of the more complex diagnoses and the only one I found myself having to go back to the DSM-IV for to be sure I'd captured everything relevant.

TL;DR - What the book describes appears to be hazing. However saying the actions weren't "bad enough" to warrant PTSD is wrong.

Let me rephrase because I don't want to offend anyone who has ever suffered PTSD. If I have offended anyone with PTSD, I apologize. I would never say something to intentionally hurt someone else's feelings. If you read the book, which it sounds you may have, she talks about how when she transferred from Widener to University of Maryland-Baltimore County, she failed out or she had to leave school because just seeing other Phi Mus wearing Phi Mu letters bothered her so much. I'm not saying I condone hazing. Maybe it is because I spent time in the military but, some of the things in the story did not seem bad enough to warrant her reaction. The fact that we are not allowed to let new members go on scavenger hunts shows that we (Greek Life) has gotten a bit soft. Those are the things many people cherish.

[DrPhil]

als463, much respect to a war veteran.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I respect that you're a veteran, but PTSD doesn't require a certain level of abuse, it requires an experience that the individual finds traumatic and about a dozen other symptoms including flashbacks, avoidance, hypersensitivity to startle and feeling emotionally numbed It's one of the more complex diagnoses and the only one I found myself having to go back to the DSM-IV for to be sure I'd captured everything relevant.

TL;DR - What the book describes appears to be hazing. However saying the actions weren't "bad enough" to warrant PTSD is wrong.

Thank you.

It is based on the person's perception. Similarly, there are probably people in the world who might consider some of the things that als463 saw/experienced in Iraq to be of minimal impact in comparison to the things they have seen/experienced.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by als463

Let me rephrase because I don't want to offend anyone who has ever suffered PTSD. If I have offended anyone with PTSD, I apologize. I would never say something to intentionally hurt someone else's feelings. If you read the book, which it sounds you may have, she talks about how when she transferred from Widener to University of Maryland-Baltimore County, she failed out or she had to leave school because just seeing other Phi Mus wearing Phi Mu letters bothered her so much. I'm not saying I condone hazing. Maybe it is because I spent time in the military but, some of the things in the story did not seem bad enough to warrant her reaction. The fact that we are not allowed to let new members go on scavenger hunts shows that we (Greek Life) has gotten a bit soft. Those are the things many people cherish.

She said it bothered her to see Phi Mus wearing letters but was that the crux of her PTSD?

A lot of Greeks say that Greek Life has gotten a bit soft but (as I've probably said in a couple of threads today ) it got soft for what was considered a good reason. For every cherished and harmless scavenger hunt, there are chapters that will have a scavenger hunt with an added twist that was added for a number of potentially harmful reasons.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by als463

If you read the book, which it sounds you may have, she talks about how when she transferred from Widener to University of Maryland-Baltimore County, she failed out or she had to leave school because just seeing other Phi Mus wearing Phi Mu letters bothered her so much. I'm not saying I condone hazing. Maybe it is because I spent time in the military but, some of the things in the story did not seem bad enough to warrant her reaction. The fact that we are not allowed to let new members go on scavenger hunts shows that we (Greek Life) has gotten a bit soft. Those are the things many people cherish.

I scanned the pages that described her experience. That kind of reaction to things that remind someone of the abuse is actually really common. Odds are walking up behind her and tapping her on the shoulder would make her jump a mile. It's called being hyperalert and hypersensitve to triggers and these would both indicated PTSD. She experienced some pretty consistent emotional abuse along with some physical abuse it seems.

I suspect being in the military has skewed your perception a bit, and that's fine. But I wouldn't discount the abuse she experienced, which was over her entire pledge period, as "not bad enough." She even acknowledges that none of it sounds that bad individually, but that it was cumulative.

I don't disagree that the no-scavenger hunts rule is silly on the face of it, but that's not what happened here. (And scavenger hunts have been used to haze but that's another story.) Sororities aren't supposed to toughen you up and put you through hell. At least, that's not in anything I ever learned.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

She said it bothered her to see Phi Mus wearing letters but was that the crux of her PTSD?

A lot of Greeks say that Greek Life has gotten a bit soft but (as I've probably said in a couple of threads today ) it got soft for what was considered a good reason. For every cherished and harmless scavenger hunt, there are chapters that will have a scavenger hunt with an added twist that was added for a number of potentially harmful reasons.

No, there were other symptoms described in the book, she was having flashbacks and night terrors as well as hyperalertness, and avoiding talking about/being around triggers. I could probably diagnose from the symptoms provided (not that I would.)

And co-sign your scavenger hunt comment.