times are changing and i need some help

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

If what you're asking them to do doesn't either help them learn the history and operations of the sorority and Greek community or help them get to know its current and alumni members, I would call it hazing, and I'm more lax than 95% of the people on here.

This isn't what distinguishes hazing from nonhazing for every GLO and nonGLO. A lot of methods have been used to help (read: make) pledges learn and encourage/instill sisterhood and brotherhood. When pledges learn and are close with each other and the actives, people say "look, our methods work!!! There's no other way to do this. Anything else is skating."

Originally Posted by 33girl

There are plenty of things that you can do within the above limits I've mentioned, and not feel as though your pledges have skated their way to sisterhood.

I agree.

However, even a colors day once a week (which I hope no one considers someone working their way into an organization LOL) is considered hazing and can get chapters in trouble in some organizations. It is a way of identifying and unifying pledges that has no clear purpose beyond that and the aspirants are usually not participating by choice. Sure, they got dressed by choice and look willing but saying "no" wouldn't go over well and they know that.

With that said, anything that chapters do must be done in line with their organization's and school's regulations. They need to know when they are breaking the rules versus thinking that everything that sounds wonderful and harmless is acceptable. We can complain about the definition of hazing and how strict it is all we want, but it doesn't erase the fact that such regulations exist.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

However, even a colors day once a week (which I hope no one considers someone working their way into an organization LOL) is considered hazing and can get chapters in trouble in some organizations. It is a way of identifying and unifying pledges that has no clear purpose beyond that and the aspirants are usually not participating by choice. Sure, they got dressed by choice and look willing but saying "no" wouldn't go over well and they know that.

Well, it depends how far "colors" day goes. If your colors are pink and blue and you wear a pink shirt and blue jeans, and it stops there, that's fine. But if your colors are purple and green and you must dress in them from head to toe (including undies) that's over the top. And as I said, at many schools there's an unofficial day where the whole Greek community wears letters. If it's part of that I don't see a problem with it (as locals usually don't let their letters be worn until initiation).

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Well, it depends how far "colors" day goes. If your colors are pink and blue and you wear a pink shirt and blue jeans, and it stops there, that's fine.

Having a colors day itself is considered pledging and/or hazing for some organizations and is therefore against the rules. It doesn't matter what that entails.

Originally Posted by 33girl

And as I said, at many schools there's an unofficial day where the whole Greek community wears letters. If it's part of that I don't see a problem with it (as locals usually don't let their letters be worn until initiation).

The Greek community wearing letters, colors, or symbols/pins/badges is not the same thing as "pledges" being asked (read: made) to do so.

(FYI, NPHC orgs generally also don't let our letters/symbols be worn until initiation.)

It all boils down to what is in agreement with school, state, and/or national organization regulation. The OP is in a local so she needs to be concerned with school and state. There is little room for personal opinion. What makes sense or seemingly "stops there, that's fine" doesn't matter. All forms of hazing originally began with personal opinions and "stops there, that's fine."

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Having a colors day itself is considered pledging and/or hazing for some organizations and is therefore against the rules. It doesn't matter what that entails.

The Greek community wearing letters, colors, or symbols/pins/badges is not the same thing as "pledges" being asked (read: made) to do so.

And I would turn the argument on its head and say that if the pledges are not allowed to feel as though they are participating in the official or unofficial activities of the Greek community - i.e. being told "OMG, don't wear colors all at the same time on letter day or we might get busted for hazing" - THAT is hazing in itself. If I would have been told as a pledge that I couldn't wear letters or some show of my affiliation on Fridays - when all the other Greeks are sporting them with pride - I would have been extremely upset.

ETA: answering the phone is slightly annoying, but I would hardly consider it a "menial task" like cleaning the house or washing cars. I'm kind of surprised that there are places that HAVE house phones any more, quite frankly.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by 33girl

And I would turn the argument on its head and say that if the pledges are not allowed to feel as though they are participating in the official or unofficial activities of the Greek community - i.e. being told "OMG, don't wear colors all at the same time on letter day or we might get busted for hazing" - THAT is hazing in itself. If I would have been told as a pledge that I couldn't wear letters or some show of my affiliation on Fridays - when all the other Greeks are sporting them with pride - I would have been extremely upset.

But I think there's a difference between telling someone, "You HAVE to wear our colors/letters on Friday," and "OMG, whatever you do, DON'T wear our colors/letters on Friday or we'll get busted for hazing," and simply mentioning, "Every Friday, everyone in the Greek community wears their colors/letters," and allowing new members to do as they please.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

But I think there's a difference between telling someone, "You HAVE to wear our colors/letters on Friday," and "OMG, whatever you do, DON'T wear our colors/letters on Friday or we'll get busted for hazing," and simply mentioning, "Every Friday, everyone in the Greek community wears their colors/letters," and allowing new members to do as they please.

I know there was a thread on here about a chapter accused of hazing by their national because their NMs didn't want to wear letters before initiation, of their own volition, because that was the school custom. The NMs were basically forced by the national to wear letters - IMO, reverse hazing.

Shit like that makes me crazy. Don't go in as the lone NPC to a longtime locals-only culture and buck it at every turn and think everyone's going to have a come to Jesus moment and see things the way you do.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I know there was a thread on here about a chapter accused of hazing by their national because their NMs didn't want to wear letters before initiation, of their own volition, because that was the school custom. The NMs were basically forced by the national to wear letters - IMO, reverse hazing.

Shit like that makes me crazy. Don't go in as the lone NPC to a longtime locals-only culture and buck it at every turn and think everyone's going to have a come to Jesus moment and see things the way you do.

Was it that one or a similar one where it was pointed out that presenting the option to the NMs to vote, with the pressure of tradition behind it, makes it less of a 'by their own free will thing?' Without even knowing what language was used to present the option, it's hard to say.

If that sort of thing was all the OP's chapter was doing, I sincerely doubt that the school would be on their asses and there would be campus rumors about what was really going on. If you're worried about losing recognition you're doing something really wrong. Especially when your response is to find something you can do that no one else will "see or hear" not "something that isn't hazing."

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I know there was a thread on here about a chapter accused of hazing by their national because their NMs didn't want to wear letters before initiation, of their own volition, because that was the school custom. The NMs were basically forced by the national to wear letters - IMO, reverse hazing.

That reminds me of a girl in my chapter who we jokingly said would "haze herself." I think it was mainly because she was so clueless about Greek life, and she would do things that we wouldn't ask of her, or she would ask seemingly innocent questions which could be taken the wrong way by others.

Even she laughs about it now. But at the time, we would worry. She could have asked something as simple as, "I can't wear letters until initiation, right?" (even though she could). But even if we said, "No, you definitely can," to an outsider, it might have made it seem as though we wouldn't allow her to do so, and that we were trying to cover something up.

I will admit that at times, it does become tiresome trying to watch every little thing you do... especially when you sometimes have no control over the situation.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

And I would turn the argument on its head and say that if the pledges are not allowed to feel as though they are participating in the official or unofficial activities of the Greek community - i.e. being told "OMG, don't wear colors all at the same time on letter day or we might get busted for hazing" - THAT is hazing in itself. If I would have been told as a pledge that I couldn't wear letters or some show of my affiliation on Fridays - when all the other Greeks are sporting them with pride - I would have been extremely upset.

This isn't about personal opinion and what individuals would say. Schools and national headquarters have heard every explanation/excuse/response in the book from actives. This is about regulations. Chapters need to know whether their practices violate rules and regulations.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This isn't about personal opinion and what individuals would say. Schools and national headquarters have heard every explanation/excuse/response in the book from actives. This is about regulations. Chapters need to know whether their practices violate rules and regulations.

This isn't coming from actives. It's coming from pledges/new members/candidates/whatever you want to call them, the very people that "anti-hazing" statutes are supposed to protect.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

This isn't coming from actives. It's coming from pledges/new members/candidates/whatever you want to call them, the very people that "anti-hazing" statutes are supposed to protect.

It often doesn't matter what the "pledges" say and whether they claim to like and/or appreciate what they have to do.