Nun excommunicated for allowing abortion to save the life of a mother

[agzg]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Right but it's essentially forced. Federal money includes, iirc reimbursements for medicare among other things. You would seriously struggle to keep a hospital running without it.

I'm quoting the 1/3 off of a site, but either way I know in the cities around here there are 2-3 hospitals and usually one is Catholic.

Medicare, Medicaid, and often times federal grants. You'd have to have a lot of private donors with deep deep pockets to keep running, I believe.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Makes sense. Otherwise they would be forced to violate their beliefs, which would go against the Constitution.

No, not unconstitutional. The Constitution only prevents the government from inhibiting the free exercise of religion, not private hospitals (or schools).

Whether Congress could condition receipt of federal money on certain things is a different issue, unrelated to the First Amendment.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by agzg

Medicare, Medicaid, and often times federal grants. You'd have to have a lot of private donors with deep deep pockets to keep running, I believe.

Medicaid goes through the state, the state gets reimbursed. Not sure if that gets affected the same way. But either way I can't imagine a hospital used to receiving that money surviving the loss of it.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

No, not unconstitutional. The Constitution only prevents the government from inhibiting the free exercise of religion, not private hospitals (or schools).

Whether Congress could condition receipt of federal money on certain things is a different issue, unrelated to the First Amendment.

And by forcing lets say Catholics to perform abortions, which are against their religious beliefs, how is that not a violation?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

And by forcing lets say Catholics to perform abortions, which are against their religious beliefs, how is that not a violation?

We won't pay your hospital unless it provides abortions =/= Do this abortion now or else.

At least, they aren't the same as far as the Courts have determined when it comes to federal funding. You're free to practice your religion, but if you want money, do it 'our' way.

However, as of now, Catholic hospitals have that exemption. Dunno about other religious orgs.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

We won't pay your hospital unless it provides abortions =/= Do this abortion now or else.

At least, they aren't the same as far as the Courts have determined when it comes to federal funding. You're free to practice your religion, but if you want money, do it 'our' way.

However, as of now, Catholic hospitals have that exemption. Dunno about other religious orgs.

I know and never said it did. I even said that they can't force them to perform, but could withhold the federal money.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

I know and never said it did. I even said that they can't force them to perform, but could withhold the federal money.

Sorry I think all three of us (you me and MC) are on the same page.

[aephi alum]

Catholic hospitals do have the right to refuse to perform abortions and other procedures that go against Catholic teachings (e.g. vasectomies, tubals).

Individual Catholic doctors practicing at other hospitals also can refuse to perform procedures that go against Catholic teachings. My more-Catholic-than-the-Pope parents practiced at a city hospital. There was a list of doctors who would not participate in abortions, and my parents, along with most of the Catholic and Orthodox Jewish doctors, were on it. My parents were also the only two doctors in the entire hospital who refused to participate in tubals. But there were plenty of doctors who had no problem with abortion. TOPs and TLs would get assigned to one OR room and residents and attendings with no objection to abortion would be assigned that room.

About the case described in the OP: My understanding of Catholic teaching is that abortion is permissible if the pregnancy poses an imminent threat to the pregnant woman's life. Even my aforementioned more-Catholic-than-the-Pope parents would not object to participating in termination of an ectopic pregnancy. Catholics consider the fetus to be a separate independent life, starting at conception, but the fetus isn't going to survive anyway, so the question is - abort and have one death, or don't abort and have two deaths. Apparently the Vatican considers the latter preferable.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Tubals?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by aephi alum

Catholic hospitals do have the right to refuse to perform abortions and other procedures that go against Catholic teachings (e.g. vasectomies, tubals).

Individual Catholic doctors practicing at other hospitals also can refuse to perform procedures that go against Catholic teachings. My more-Catholic-than-the-Pope parents practiced at a city hospital. There was a list of doctors who would not participate in abortions, and my parents, along with most of the Catholic and Orthodox Jewish doctors, were on it. My parents were also the only two doctors in the entire hospital who refused to participate in tubals. But there were plenty of doctors who had no problem with abortion. TOPs and TLs would get assigned to one OR room and residents and attendings with no objection to abortion would be assigned that room.

About the case described in the OP: My understanding of Catholic teaching is that abortion is permissible if the pregnancy poses an imminent threat to the pregnant woman's life. Even my aforementioned more-Catholic-than-the-Pope parents would not object to participating in termination of an ectopic pregnancy. Catholics consider the fetus to be a separate independent life, starting at conception, but the fetus isn't going to survive anyway, so the question is - abort and have one death, or don't abort and have two deaths. Apparently the Vatican considers the latter preferable.

Yeah it's never permissible unless it's the side effect of another legitimate procedure. See MC's posts because he's good at explaining it.

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Tubals?

Voluntary sterilization is also against Catholic teaching if it's purely for the prevention of birth. (not related to an ectopic pregnancy or something, just because you don't want kids anymore)

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Tubals?

In Catholicism, the only acceptable methods of birth control are abstinence and natural family planning (periodic abstinence / the rhythm method). My parents interpreted this to mean that they could not participate in tubal ligation surgery (or a vasectomy, but they're anesthesiologists, not urologists). Did I mention they're more Catholic than the Pope?

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Yeah it's never permissible unless it's the side effect of another legitimate procedure. See MC's posts because he's good at explaining it.



Voluntary sterilization is also against Catholic teaching if it's purely for the prevention of birth. (not related to an ectopic pregnancy or something, just because you don't want kids anymore)

Actually was asking what a tubal was. I'm a idiot lol. And yes I knew that since it falls under non natural birth control.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Actually was asking what a tubal was. I'm a idiot lol. And yes I knew that since it falls under non natural birth control.

Ah sorry >.< Answered the wrong question.

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Actually was asking what a tubal was. I'm a idiot lol. And yes I knew that since it falls under non natural birth control.

I could give you the gory details, but suffice it to say that it's one option for permanent sterilization for women. And permanent sterilization is a big no-no according to the Vatican. Who are a bunch of old men. And if I don't stop typing and hit the "submit reply" button right now this is going to turn into another aephi alum anti-Catholic rant.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by aephi alum

I could give you the gory details, but suffice it to say that it's one option for permanent sterilization for women. And permanent sterilization is a big no-no according to the Vatican. Who are a bunch of old men. And if I don't stop typing and hit the "submit reply" button right now this is going to turn into another aephi alum anti-Catholic rant.

Always thought the Church being a geriatric based hierarchy was a bad idea. And since I am kind of curious can you PM me lol?