kappa sigma at fgcu?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

We didnt start this discussion. In terms of why we are here now... Personally, I simply wanted to explain our side as there were a number of misconceptions surrounding what has been happening.
Our complaint, as I said earlier, is that this group of men have been denied the right to even apply as an RSO; thus not allowed to use the same facilities granted to organizations of the exact same type.
IFC recognition would be the ideal; but we also acknowledge their right to grant or deny membership. However, we do not believe that the school has any grounds to deny any organization to register and use facilities, that is peaceful and does not disrupt the education of another student.

You acknowledge that IFC has the right to approve/deny membership.

However, in order to be recognized as a GLO, it sounds like you need to have membership in a governing council.

The fact that your group was even allowed to present to IFC shows that FGCU is not discriminating -- IFC doesn't want you at this time.

IIRC, if you want to be JUST a RSO, your single-sex status might be challenged.

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

IIRC, if you want to be JUST a RSO, your single-sex status might be challenged.

There is a section on the RSO application for Fraternities/Sororities. The single-sex status is protected by Title 9; regardless of the governing body.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Knight Shadow, just in case it isn't clear, Title 9 is federal legislation. It is the law. Federal law preempts state law vis a vis something called the supremacy clause. Title 9 expressly gives fraternities and sororities the right to operate as gender-specific organizations. As such, FGCU can't invent a rule challenging our single-gender status, because it's FEDERAL LAW. Make sense?

Is this what you consider common knowledge regarding Title IX or simply your interpretation of how this pertains to FGCU?

Oh and we have threads about Title IX.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Dr Phil, I don't think understanding of Title 9 is common knowledge, you have to read it and study it.

Let us know when you have done so.

redundancy/
What KSigAdvisor needs to understand is that this isn't about him. The issue of GLO recognition by colleges and universities is a longstanding one, as indicated by the posts on previous pages (before people got tired). Students and alum need to understand the how tos, whys, and hows before they get angry with institutions and feel as though insitutions are imposing upon their "legal rights." There are institutions that are violating rules and regulations (and/or "legal rights"), but that is not to be assumed just because you are told NO or whatever.
/redundancy

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Knight Shadow, just in case it isn't clear, Title 9 is federal legislation. It is the law. Federal law preempts state law vis a vis something called the supremacy clause. Title 9 expressly gives fraternities and sororities the right to operate as gender-specific organizations. As such, FGCU can't invent a rule challenging our single-gender status, because it's FEDERAL LAW. Make sense?

Being condescending doesn't help move things along, dickhead.

What rule has FGCU created that challenges your single-sex status?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

What rule has FGCU created that challenges your single-sex status?

Based on the long windedness of his posts, I conclude that he doesn't know. This is just a data dump of legal stuff that he thinks pertains to this instance.

Signed,
Dr. (no quotations) Phil

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

See what we are dealing with MysticCat? random users jump on and insult us, like "Dr" Phil. They ignore legally valid arguments, and simply take shots, which is easy to do- sit back, say nothing and take shots at people. And then you complain when we respond? Please, don't stick up for Dr. Phil.

Knight Shadow, our issue is with FGCU. IFC can deny us the right to be in IFC. IFC is a bunch of students and can do whatever it wants. FGCU, however, can't deny us the right to be a student organization simply because IFC doesn't want us around. IFC and FGCU aren't one in the same. Make sense?

Wait...IFC and FGCU are separate entities? Whodathunkit??

You still haven't answered any questions asked of you.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

This is the argument right here Knight Rider, and I'm being serious.

Hey, KSigAdvil, his username is knight_shadow.

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

This is the precise rule we think is unconstitutional. FGCU is basically inventing a rule that in order to be a registered student organization that we have to "have membership in a governing council" aka "we have to be recognized by the IFC." Such a rule puts our civil liberties in the hands of our fellow students, which is unconstitutional. Neither you nor I have the right to tel any other student he can't be recognized by the university unless we, as a "governing council" recognizes him first. Post Brown v. Board of Education, the gov't (FGCU) can't deny us right simply because our fellow citizens (IFC, Greeks, students) don't want us around. We all have rights regardless of what others want!! This is America, we are all equal!!!! That is our entire point.

This is so hilarious.

This is one of the worst and most circular threads ever.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Hey, KSigAdvil, his username is knight_shadow.

iChuckled

[TSteven]

Thank you Rambler1869 for your posts. If I may, I have a few questions.

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

There is no policy at FGCU that says a fraternity cannot colonize without being approved. There is a punishment policy that involves initiating members; but that's it. In that regard, to date Kappa Sigma has not violated any policies of FGCU.

In terms of their wishes, the school also cannot prohibit any group from forming (freedom to assemble).

If this is true, then why has it taken from November 2008 to March 2010 to begin the process to become an RSO at FGCU?

Frankly, Kappa Sigma should have a number of alumni members that are attorneys. So if no rules were broken, then they should have been able to guide y'all through the legal paperwork rather effortlessly.

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

Even the Assistant General Counsel for FGCU has issued a written statement to Kappa Sigma early March, which says any individual student can reserve meeting rooms. When attempting to reserve a meeting space, that exact letter was presented and individual student was still denied.

What was the specific (official) reason for the denial?

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by TSteven

Thank you Rambler1869 for your posts. If I may, I have a few questions.



If this is true, then why has it taken from November 2008 to March 2010 to begin the process to become an RSO at FGCU?

Frankly, Kappa Sigma should have a number of alumni members that are attorneys. So if no rules were broken, then they should have been able to guide y'all through the legal paperwork rather effortlessly.



What was the specific (official) reason for the denial?

Missed this post earlier. The reason it has taken so long; is because the school (on multiple occasions) had refused to even issue the RSO application; because of their single-gender status as a fraternity. After the news story ran; the school did issue an application that is currently in the works; however there is still debate surrounding the single-sex protection.

Kappa Sigma does have a number of alumni who are attorney's and a number of them are currently working with the FGCU legal department (outside of formal litigation) to attempt to resolve the matter peacefully; as it is our belief that neither side wants to go that route. However, please do not take that as we wont; we just believe it should be a last resort scenario. We would have much prefered the entire issue been handled peacefully; which is why its only been until fairly recently that many of you became aware of the situation at all; as we were trying to work with the school rather than against it.

The official denial (oral, not written) was that they knew it was for a fraternity, which needed IFC recognition. Please note, the individual did not say or write that the room was for Kappa Sigma. As crazy as that sounds; its unfortunately how it went down.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

However, in order to be recognized as a GLO, it sounds like you need to have membership in a governing council.

There we go!! This is the argument right here Knight Rider, and I'm being serious. This is the precise rule we think is unconstitutional. FGCU is basically inventing a rule that in order to be a registered student organization that we have to "have membership in a governing council" aka "we have to be recognized by the IFC." Such a rule puts our civil liberties in the hands of our fellow students, which is unconstitutional. Neither you nor I have the right to tel any other student he can't be recognized by the university unless we, as a "governing council" recognizes him first. Post Brown v. Board of Education, the gov't (FGCU) can't deny us right simply because our fellow citizens (IFC, Greeks, students) don't want us around. We all have rights regardless of what others want!! This is America, we are all equal!!!! That is our entire point.

FGCU did not invent this rule. Many schools require council membership for liability purposes.

So it sounds like your issue is not with FGCU, but with IFC, an entity that does not want you at this time.

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

FGCU did not invent this rule. Many schools require council membership for liability purposes.

So it sounds like your issue is not with FGCU, but with IFC, an entity that does not want you at this time.

Not necessarily; the school does need all groups to be registered, provide a copy of bylaws, and list of all members for liability purposes; but that's just about it. The governing body is a seperate matter.

The fight is with FGCU, not the IFC. A group of students, does not have the right to ban a lawful group of students to form an organization. They can prevent that group from being members of their own organization (IFC can vote no to IFC recognition; but they cannot vote to have them not form at all). However, the school itself, by equal protection laws is still bound to let every organization apply to become a registered student organization.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

Not necessarily; the school does need all groups to be registered, provide a copy of bylaws, and list of all members for liability purposes; but that's just about it. The governing body is a seperate matter.

The fight is with FGCU, not the IFC. A group of students, does not have the right to ban a lawful group of students to form an organization. They can prevent that group from being members of their own organization (IFC can vote no to IFC recognition; but they cannot vote to have them not form at all). However, the school itself, by equal protection laws is still bound to let every organization apply to become a registered student organization.

Your organization was formed.

You needed to be a member of a Greek council to be a Greek organization.

You were allowed (by FGCU) to petition for membership in IFC.

IFC didn't want you right now. You'll have to wait.

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Your organization was formed.

You needed to be a member of a Greek council to be a Greek organization.

You were allowed (by FGCU) to petition for membership in IFC.

IFC didn't want you right now. You'll have to wait.

Formed, off campus - not using school facilities. This goes back to the heart of the issue.

You do not need to be a member of a Greek council to be a Greek organization; this is a very common misconception.

The point, was being allowed to become a Registered Student Organization; which can be outside of IFC. As you do not need to be part of the Greek Council, to be a Greek organization; IFC recognition would be the ideal route, however it isnt needed to be a fraternity on a public university. As it stands, these men were denied the right to even apply as an RSO.