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03-22-2010, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PM_Mama00
This is the problem with me trying to understand what's going on. It seems that some (many on my FB) are only for this because Obama came up with it and some are against it because of Obama. People can't seem to think for themself. I was just looking for an unbiased explanation and no one can seem to give one.
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This is the reason I've found it impossible to discuss the bill with most of my peers. I don't give a damn who supports the bill and who doesn't, and because many uninsured get health care when they really need it anyway in emergency rooms we are in roundabout ways paying for the uninsured as we speak. This is a way of specifying how we do that. But the "how" in this case is the biggest problem I have with the bill. It is not at all going to help those of us who already have insurance and I don't believe for a minute those that will be covered in the future will get quality healthcare just because the government is covering it. Putting such a high burden on people who make a "large" salary is just as injust as denying healthcare to those who can't afford it. Of course I don't have the credentials to know what the best way is to solve this problem from an economic standpoint, but this can't be it.
On the plus side, keeping insurance companies from denying coverage based on pre-existing conditions, and eliminating the caps on pay outs are surely good for everyone.
It would be nice if people could stop looking at this in a "point for Obama" manner and could look at the bill itself instead of who was for it and who was against it. It's going to affect us all in some way, so there's no point in pretending it's a game.
Last edited by Alumiyum; 03-22-2010 at 03:28 PM.
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03-22-2010, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alumiyum
But the "how" in this case is the biggest problem I have with the bill. It is not at all going to help those of us who already have insurance . . .
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Except that you yourself contradict this:
Quote:
On the plus side, keeping insurance companies from denying coverage based on pre-existing conditions, and eliminating the caps on pay outs are surely good for everyone.
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Eliminating caps certainly can benefit those who already have insurance. And even for those of us who already have insurance stand to benefit from the elimination of denial of coverage due to pre-existing conditions if we change jobs or insurance carriers.
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03-22-2010, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticCat
Except that you yourself contradict this:Eliminating caps certainly can benefit those who already have insurance. And even for those of us who already have insurance stand to benefit from the elimination of denial of coverage due to pre-existing conditions if we change jobs or insurance carriers.
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You're right, and I shouldn't have said "not at all". To correct myself I see very few benefits to those who already have insurance.
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03-22-2010, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alumiyum
You're right, and I shouldn't have said "not at all". To correct myself I see very few benefits to those who already have insurance.
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Valid point. And it make some sense to me, since the thrust of the bill is the uninsured. But these two benefits to the already-insured could be major benefits for some people.
ETA: We forgot that insurance companies will also be barred from cancelling the insurance of people who get "too sick." Pretty major, I think.
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Last edited by MysticCat; 03-22-2010 at 04:17 PM.
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03-22-2010, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticCat
Valid point. And it make some sense to me, since the thrust of the bill is the uninsured. But these two benefits to the already-insured could be major benefits for some people.
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Especially when the classification of any condition is left to the discretion of the insurance company - be it broad or narrow to determine pre-existing conditions.
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03-22-2010, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alumiyum
You're right, and I shouldn't have said "not at all". To correct myself I see very few benefits to those who already have insurance.
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The elimination of caps are actually a pretty big benefit for the insured. None of us who are healthy think about this, but if you suddenly get diagnosed with cancer or a major disease like heart disease needing open heart surgery and multiple heart catheterizations, you could rapidly run up your yearly and then lifetime limits on health insurance benefits. This is how people end up declaring bankruptcy after major illnesses even with health insurance.
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03-22-2010, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AOII Angel
I can tell you from LOTS of experience that very FEW people know their own bodies and what is normal. We get far too many people in ERs for abdominal pain thinking they have appendicitis because they haven't taken a poop in too long, women in breast centers who think they have breast masses but it turns out to be normal breast tissue, people in doctors' offices asking why they have a twinge or pinch or ache when they do this or that motion. Unfortunately, if every doctor worked up every single complaint because every patient "knows their body" we'd spend so much money and find next to no pathology. The body has aches and pains. 98.5 is a normal temperature that you see in nobody. Why are you checking your temperature anyway? Throw away your thermometer! You are still WRONG about the thyroid and T3/T4 levels. It's rather insulting, too, that you think that your research with hypothyroid patients trumps 13 years of education that endocrinologists have with regard to the thyroid. Maybe they know what they are talking about. Taking extra synthroid may make you feel better, but it's also associated with a lot of other side effects. You do what you want, but leave the ugly commentary about physicians behind.
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This is the problem. We all know there are hypochondriacs in the doctor's office every day, but that's life. On the other hand I've been brushed off repeatedly by doctors who refuse to believe I'm anything but a hypochondriac. Muscle and joint pain so bad I sometimes cannot leave bed, fatigue so severe I sometimes can't get out of bed (yes I have a regular sleep schedule, have cut out all caffeine, etc.), and bouts of hair loss (which, yes, is a cosmetic issue and fortunately because my hair is thick in my case not a noticeable one, but is also a symptom of a problem elsewhere in the body) make it obvious there is something wrong with me. But again, because I don't appear to be dying, I have not gotten a diagnosis. I have no problem doing my own research on these and my many other symptoms to come up with some possibilities, but I am not a health care professional and obviously cannot diagnose or treat myself. Your average person, myself included, does know the difference between normal and not when it comes to their body. When something changes rapidly and radically (like totally healthy to daily moderate to severe pain) a patient can be reasonably certain there is something up and just because one or two tests don't present an immediate answer doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. I think if doctors would treat everyone the same-pay attention to them, order only necessary tests, and follow up quickly, those of us with a disorder or disease could be diagnosed and sent on our way with the correct treatment, and the hypochondriacs could be reassured that they are very healthy and could be sent on their way as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AOII Angel
The elimination of caps are actually a pretty big benefit for the insured. None of us who are healthy think about this, but if you suddenly get diagnosed with cancer or a major disease like heart disease needing open heart surgery and multiple heart catheterizations, you could rapidly run up your yearly and then lifetime limits on health insurance benefits. This is how people end up declaring bankruptcy after major illnesses even with health insurance.
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You'd be surprised at what some of us know from experience.
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03-22-2010, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alumiyum
This is the problem. We all know there are hypochondriacs in the doctor's office every day, but that's life. On the other hand I've been brushed off repeatedly by doctors who refuse to believe I'm anything but a hypochondriac. Muscle and joint pain so bad I sometimes cannot leave bed, fatigue so severe I sometimes can't get out of bed (yes I have a regular sleep schedule, have cut out all caffeine, etc.), and bouts of hair loss (which, yes, is a cosmetic issue and fortunately because my hair is thick in my case not a noticeable one, but is also a symptom of a problem elsewhere in the body) make it obvious there is something wrong with me. But again, because I don't appear to be dying, I have not gotten a diagnosis. I have no problem doing my own research on these and my many other symptoms to come up with some possibilities, but I am not a health care professional and obviously cannot diagnose or treat myself. Your average person, myself included, does know the difference between normal and not when it comes to their body. When something changes rapidly and radically (like totally healthy to daily moderate to severe pain) a patient can be reasonably certain there is something up and just because one or two tests don't present an immediate answer doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. I think if doctors would treat everyone the same-pay attention to them, order only necessary tests, and follow up quickly, those of us with a disorder or disease could be diagnosed and sent on our way with the correct treatment, and the hypochondriacs could be reassured that they are very healthy and could be sent on their way as well.
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And I wouldn't call you a hypochondriac, but a lot of vague illnesses also are difficult to diagnose. The problem with our current health care system is that primary care physicians are NOT reimbursed to spend 20 minutes or more with a patient to figure out what is wrong with them if it isn't run of the mill hypertension or diabetes. That being said, you can get a referral to a specialist...I would recommend a rheumatologist given the symptoms you are complaining of. They even have research physicians at places like the NIH that specialize in hard to diagnose cases (kinda like House but not fake.) That being said, not everything is a sign of a disease. I think that losing hair may or may not be a problem. Joint pain/swelling for over 6 months is a problem and may be a sign of a serious disease. I wouldn't take no for an answer.
As for Beryana...If I am the reason you don't go to doctors, you are a fool.
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03-22-2010, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AOII Angel
And I wouldn't call you a hypochondriac, but a lot of vague illnesses also are difficult to diagnose. The problem with our current health care system is that primary care physicians are NOT reimbursed to spend 20 minutes or more with a patient to figure out what is wrong with them if it isn't run of the mill hypertension or diabetes. That being said, you can get a referral to a specialist...I would recommend a rheumatologist given the symptoms you are complaining of. They even have research physicians at places like the NIH that specialize in hard to diagnose cases (kinda like House but not fake.) That being said, not everything is a sign of a disease. I think that losing hair may or may not be a problem. Joint pain/swelling for over 6 months is a problem and may be a sign of a serious disease. I wouldn't take no for an answer.
As for Beryana...If I am the reason you don't go to doctors, you are a fool.
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My point is spending a little more time to figure it out in the first place would decrease repeated visits and a lot of irritation on both ends. I realize a few people are going to come through with true mystery illnesses, but surely those are minority cases. Specialists that I have been referred to have been no more helpful than the two doctors I've been to before. Not taking no for an answer is easier said than done when doctors simply don't want to take the time to find the problem. I'll eventually find the right doctor but in the meantime it's frustrating to spend copious amounts of time and money shopping around, especially since I know it would be easier for a doctor that has already seen me to get a read on the problem than a new one who has to review my file and start from scratch. (For the record the only helpful hint I've gotten is actually from a family friend who is a doctor and suggested an autoimmune disease, and as the only disease in that category that can be ruled out in my case is HIV my next step is to present this theory to my doctor...we'll see how it goes this time.)
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03-22-2010, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AOII Angel
As for Beryana...If I am the reason you don't go to doctors, you are a fool.
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Umm...I don't go to doctors because I'm typically not sick. . . I just don't like your attitude that people can't know their own bodies or do their own research and bring some intelligence to the table. I also don't put doctors up on a pedestal as you are also human and don't necessarily know everything about everything.
I've had bad experiences with Family Practitioners as well as specialists. Not spending more than a few minutes with a patient missed a MAJOR diagnosis (a STROKE!!). Why bother going in to see a doctor if they don't care about a patient?
And I really don't care what you think about me because I'll never be coming to see you or your husband in any capacity, professional or otherwise.
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03-22-2010, 04:03 PM
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The problem as I see it is that long term this program is not sustainable. (reference Medicare, medicaid and Social Security) We (the U.S.) already are in debt up to our ears. How do we pay for these programs?
If one really believes that Health Care for everyone will ultimately save us money and not effect our national debt I really think they are mistaken. When you have to cover everyone the premiums will go up as the risk is now greater. Small insurers will not be able to compete because they can not make money and they will go out of businesss or be gobbled up by larger companies. The effect is that there will be less competition. Private companies will find it easier to pay the % fine to the Government instead of offering their employees health insurance coverage as it will be cheaper. Ultimately, as the premiums increase and competition decreases there will be a renewed call by the left for Nationalized Health Care. This will in turn have to be paid for by increased taxes and fees and we will be left to foot the bill. As with anything the Government runs the quallity and service will diminish and the price will escalate due to the inherent inefficiencies of our out of control bureaucracy. Let's face it. Our fiscal house is a disaster and if we keep going down this path we are in really big trouble. I am truly worried about the fiscal stability of our country. I see a time when our bonds are junk and the Chinese will call us on them.
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03-22-2010, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostwriter
The problem as I see it is that long term this program is not sustainable. (reference Medicare, medicaid and Social Security) We (the U.S.) already are in debt up to our ears. How do we pay for these programs?
If one really believes that Health Care for everyone will ultimately save us money and not effect our national debt I really think they are mistaken. When you have to cover everyone the premiums will go up as the risk is now greater. Small insurers will not be able to compete because they can not make money and they will go out of businesss or be gobbled up by larger companies. The effect is that there will be less competition. Private companies will find it easier to pay the % fine to the Government instead of offering their employees health insurance coverage as it will be cheaper. Ultimately, as the premiums increase and competition decreases there will be a renewed call by the left for Nationalized Health Care. This will in turn have to be paid for by increased taxes and fees and we will be left to foot the bill. As with anything the Government runs the quallity and service will diminish and the price will escalate due to the inherent inefficiencies of our out of control bureaucracy. Let's face it. Our fiscal house is a disaster and if we keep going down this path we are in really big trouble. I am truly worried about the fiscal stability of our country. I see a time when our bonds are junk and the Chinese will call us on them.
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Actually, things should be less expensive as more people are covered because there is a mandate that all people have insurance including the young, healthy citizens. This bill doesn't give free insurance to every citizen. It requires everyone to buy insurance. The risk is spread around so cost decreases. As you have seen recently in California when the recession hit and all the healthy people dropped their coverage, leaving all the chronically ill people on the rolls of Blue Cross, the rates skyrocketed. Adding people to the insurance rolls brings down the risk and costs. Why do you think they made everyone get insurance?
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03-22-2010, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostwriter
As with anything the Government runs the quallity and service will diminish and the price will escalate due to the inherent inefficiencies of our out of control bureaucracy.
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Unlike the inherent inefficiencies of insurance companies with huge executive salaries? If everything the government runs is inherently inefficient, maybe we should privatize the Army and the Navy.
While I think you raise valid points that are open to reasonable debate, I think overgeneralizations like this detract greatly from that reasonable debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AOII Angel
Why do you think they made everyone get insurance?
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Why don't we ask Mitt Romney. Wasn't it his idea first?
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03-22-2010, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticCat
Unlike the inherent inefficiencies of insurance companies with huge executive salaries? If everything the government runs is inherently inefficient, maybe we should privatize the Army and the Navy.
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I am not so sure our Army and Navy are that well run from an efficiency stand point. Do you not believe there are billions upon billions of dollars in waste and fraud within the services?
To your point on private insurance carriers they are just that, private. If they can justify to their stockholders the Executives pay then so be it. I am not pleased about the disparity between what the person at the top makes versus the person at the bottom but that is for the companies and their stock holders to sort through. You are aware that the administrative cost for private insurance carriers is somewhere in the neighborhood of 12%. This is a pretty good figure and I doubt our government could run a insurance program at that low of a level if all applicable costs were included.
http://www.ahipresearch.org/pdfs/adm...sts_030705.pdf
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Rep...vate-Insurance
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Last edited by Ghostwriter; 03-22-2010 at 05:06 PM.
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03-22-2010, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticCat
Unlike the inherent inefficiencies of insurance companies with huge executive salaries? If everything the government runs is inherently inefficient, maybe we should privatize the Army and the Navy.
While I think you raise valid points that are open to reasonable debate, I think overgeneralizations like this detract greatly from that reasonable debate.
Why don't we ask Mitt Romney. Wasn't it his idea first?
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Exactly, that's where they got the idea, and it's working in Massachusetts. That's why Massachusetts didn't want a new federal mandate, they already have universal care in that state. For anyone who says that including everyone doesn't bring down rates, just look at Massachusetts. The only real issue they are currently having is that they have a shortage of primary care physicians. This is what we really need to worry about!
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