House passes health care bill on 219-212 vote

[Kappamd]

^^^Thank you

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

You're right, and I shouldn't have said "not at all". To correct myself I see very few benefits to those who already have insurance.

The elimination of caps are actually a pretty big benefit for the insured. None of us who are healthy think about this, but if you suddenly get diagnosed with cancer or a major disease like heart disease needing open heart surgery and multiple heart catheterizations, you could rapidly run up your yearly and then lifetime limits on health insurance benefits. This is how people end up declaring bankruptcy after major illnesses even with health insurance.

[Ghostwriter]

The problem as I see it is that long term this program is not sustainable. (reference Medicare, medicaid and Social Security) We (the U.S.) already are in debt up to our ears. How do we pay for these programs?

If one really believes that Health Care for everyone will ultimately save us money and not effect our national debt I really think they are mistaken. When you have to cover everyone the premiums will go up as the risk is now greater. Small insurers will not be able to compete because they can not make money and they will go out of businesss or be gobbled up by larger companies. The effect is that there will be less competition. Private companies will find it easier to pay the % fine to the Government instead of offering their employees health insurance coverage as it will be cheaper. Ultimately, as the premiums increase and competition decreases there will be a renewed call by the left for Nationalized Health Care. This will in turn have to be paid for by increased taxes and fees and we will be left to foot the bill. As with anything the Government runs the quallity and service will diminish and the price will escalate due to the inherent inefficiencies of our out of control bureaucracy. Let's face it. Our fiscal house is a disaster and if we keep going down this path we are in really big trouble. I am truly worried about the fiscal stability of our country. I see a time when our bonds are junk and the Chinese will call us on them.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

The problem as I see it is that long term this program is not sustainable. (reference Medicare, medicaid and Social Security) We (the U.S.) already are in debt up to our ears. How do we pay for these programs?

If one really believes that Health Care for everyone will ultimately save us money and not effect our national debt I really think they are mistaken. When you have to cover everyone the premiums will go up as the risk is now greater. Small insurers will not be able to compete because they can not make money and they will go out of businesss or be gobbled up by larger companies. The effect is that there will be less competition. Private companies will find it easier to pay the % fine to the Government instead of offering their employees health insurance coverage as it will be cheaper. Ultimately, as the premiums increase and competition decreases there will be a renewed call by the left for Nationalized Health Care. This will in turn have to be paid for by increased taxes and fees and we will be left to foot the bill. As with anything the Government runs the quallity and service will diminish and the price will escalate due to the inherent inefficiencies of our out of control bureaucracy. Let's face it. Our fiscal house is a disaster and if we keep going down this path we are in really big trouble. I am truly worried about the fiscal stability of our country. I see a time when our bonds are junk and the Chinese will call us on them.

Actually, things should be less expensive as more people are covered because there is a mandate that all people have insurance including the young, healthy citizens. This bill doesn't give free insurance to every citizen. It requires everyone to buy insurance. The risk is spread around so cost decreases. As you have seen recently in California when the recession hit and all the healthy people dropped their coverage, leaving all the chronically ill people on the rolls of Blue Cross, the rates skyrocketed. Adding people to the insurance rolls brings down the risk and costs. Why do you think they made everyone get insurance?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

As with anything the Government runs the quallity and service will diminish and the price will escalate due to the inherent inefficiencies of our out of control bureaucracy.

Unlike the inherent inefficiencies of insurance companies with huge executive salaries? If everything the government runs is inherently inefficient, maybe we should privatize the Army and the Navy.

While I think you raise valid points that are open to reasonable debate, I think overgeneralizations like this detract greatly from that reasonable debate.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Why do you think they made everyone get insurance?

Why don't we ask Mitt Romney. Wasn't it his idea first?

[Beryana]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I can tell you from LOTS of experience that very FEW people know their own bodies and what is normal. We get far too many people in ERs for abdominal pain thinking they have appendicitis because they haven't taken a poop in too long, women in breast centers who think they have breast masses but it turns out to be normal breast tissue, people in doctors' offices asking why they have a twinge or pinch or ache when they do this or that motion. Unfortunately, if every doctor worked up every single complaint because every patient "knows their body" we'd spend so much money and find next to no pathology. The body has aches and pains. 98.5 is a normal temperature that you see in nobody. Why are you checking your temperature anyway? Throw away your thermometer! You are still WRONG about the thyroid and T3/T4 levels. It's rather insulting, too, that you think that your research with hypothyroid patients trumps 13 years of education that endocrinologists have with regard to the thyroid. Maybe they know what they are talking about. Taking extra synthroid may make you feel better, but it's also associated with a lot of other side effects. You do what you want, but leave the ugly commentary about physicians behind.

And you are the reason I don't go to the doctor very often! I can tell you with 100% certainty that on or off the levothyroxine I feel no different - and yes, this is being off the drug for WEEKS (why be on a drug if its not doing anything - and why take a pharmaceutical if a thyroid issue is because I have been lacking iodine or some other part of a diet). I DON'T go running to the doctor for every little thing (the breast biopsy and mammograms are because my mother has breast cancer so I thought it would be a good idea to have a baseline for myself). As to taking temps, well that's what my cousin (who is a nurse) said to do to make sure the biopsy issue was not causing a fever due to infection. . . and after doing that for a while, a person starts to notice trends. . . .And when I am sitting in a 70 degree house in a sweatshirt, jeans and sock and am FREEZING cold, something is wrong (simple progression here: thyroid = metabolism = energy = heat and I learned that in high school physics class - and my heart and veins are all very healthy.)

I respect doctor's for their years of schooling, however doctor's also have to give patients the benefit of the doubt rather than treating them like school children who don't know anything. Are there exceptions to the rules? Of course - on both sides. And experiences also speak for a lot - I don't like specialists based on my experience. The more specialized you get the less of the big picture you are able to see - and the big/overall picture is VERY important, especially when dealing with a person's health and how interconnected ALL the systems are.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Actually, things should be less expensive as more people are covered because there is a mandate that all people have insurance including the young, healthy citizens. This bill doesn't give free insurance to every citizen. It requires everyone to buy insurance. The risk is spread around so cost decreases. As you have seen recently in California when the recession hit and all the healthy people dropped their coverage, leaving all the chronically ill people on the rolls of Blue Cross, the rates skyrocketed. Adding people to the insurance rolls brings down the risk and costs. Why do you think they made everyone get insurance?

You are going to cover everyone without regard to preexisting conditions and you really expect rate and premiums to decrease? The pool might have enlarged but many of the people in the pool are of a higher risk.

You know it is bad when the Government plans to hire thousands of IRS workers to audit this. If it is so great we should all be flocking to get coverage.

Oh and SAKO. Shut the hell up and leave this discussion. If you are who I think you are you have been banned a kajillion times.

[Beryana]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Actually, things should be less expensive as more people are covered because there is a mandate that all people have insurance including the young, healthy citizens. This bill doesn't give free insurance to every citizen. It requires everyone to buy insurance. The risk is spread around so cost decreases. As you have seen recently in California when the recession hit and all the healthy people dropped their coverage, leaving all the chronically ill people on the rolls of Blue Cross, the rates skyrocketed. Adding people to the insurance rolls brings down the risk and costs. Why do you think they made everyone get insurance?

Actually, because everyone HAS to get insurance there is no reason for the rates to be dropped. Remember insurance companies are business out to make money for their share holders, that's all. Basically supply and demand says there is now a great demand for a product they are selling so they can charge whatever they want for the most part. And adding everyone to the insurance roles means there is actually more risk because there will be no more 'pre-existing condition' clauses. Do you really think that healthy people don't get cancer quickly? I know that around here a 3-week treatment cycle for my mom's breast cancer costs at least $28,000. Or my medical bills from an accidental fall came to over $10,000. Those are all insurance claims from people that would be considered healthy prior to those events. . . .

Tort reforms to allow interstate competition is what would actually bring the insurance premiums down as companies will have to compete for the business and the patients will have a true choice in what insurance they want. Once again we are back to putting the patient at the heart of actual reform.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Unlike the inherent inefficiencies of insurance companies with huge executive salaries? If everything the government runs is inherently inefficient, maybe we should privatize the Army and the Navy.

I am not so sure our Army and Navy are that well run from an efficiency stand point. Do you not believe there are billions upon billions of dollars in waste and fraud within the services?

To your point on private insurance carriers they are just that, private. If they can justify to their stockholders the Executives pay then so be it. I am not pleased about the disparity between what the person at the top makes versus the person at the bottom but that is for the companies and their stock holders to sort through. You are aware that the administrative cost for private insurance carriers is somewhere in the neighborhood of 12%. This is a pretty good figure and I doubt our government could run a insurance program at that low of a level if all applicable costs were included.

http://www.ahipresearch.org/pdfs/adm...sts_030705.pdf

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Rep...vate-Insurance

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I can tell you from LOTS of experience that very FEW people know their own bodies and what is normal. We get far too many people in ERs for abdominal pain thinking they have appendicitis because they haven't taken a poop in too long, women in breast centers who think they have breast masses but it turns out to be normal breast tissue, people in doctors' offices asking why they have a twinge or pinch or ache when they do this or that motion. Unfortunately, if every doctor worked up every single complaint because every patient "knows their body" we'd spend so much money and find next to no pathology. The body has aches and pains. 98.5 is a normal temperature that you see in nobody. Why are you checking your temperature anyway? Throw away your thermometer! You are still WRONG about the thyroid and T3/T4 levels. It's rather insulting, too, that you think that your research with hypothyroid patients trumps 13 years of education that endocrinologists have with regard to the thyroid. Maybe they know what they are talking about. Taking extra synthroid may make you feel better, but it's also associated with a lot of other side effects. You do what you want, but leave the ugly commentary about physicians behind.

This is the problem. We all know there are hypochondriacs in the doctor's office every day, but that's life. On the other hand I've been brushed off repeatedly by doctors who refuse to believe I'm anything but a hypochondriac. Muscle and joint pain so bad I sometimes cannot leave bed, fatigue so severe I sometimes can't get out of bed (yes I have a regular sleep schedule, have cut out all caffeine, etc.), and bouts of hair loss (which, yes, is a cosmetic issue and fortunately because my hair is thick in my case not a noticeable one, but is also a symptom of a problem elsewhere in the body) make it obvious there is something wrong with me. But again, because I don't appear to be dying, I have not gotten a diagnosis. I have no problem doing my own research on these and my many other symptoms to come up with some possibilities, but I am not a health care professional and obviously cannot diagnose or treat myself. Your average person, myself included, does know the difference between normal and not when it comes to their body. When something changes rapidly and radically (like totally healthy to daily moderate to severe pain) a patient can be reasonably certain there is something up and just because one or two tests don't present an immediate answer doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. I think if doctors would treat everyone the same-pay attention to them, order only necessary tests, and follow up quickly, those of us with a disorder or disease could be diagnosed and sent on our way with the correct treatment, and the hypochondriacs could be reassured that they are very healthy and could be sent on their way as well.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

The elimination of caps are actually a pretty big benefit for the insured. None of us who are healthy think about this, but if you suddenly get diagnosed with cancer or a major disease like heart disease needing open heart surgery and multiple heart catheterizations, you could rapidly run up your yearly and then lifetime limits on health insurance benefits. This is how people end up declaring bankruptcy after major illnesses even with health insurance.

You'd be surprised at what some of us know from experience.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Beryana

Actually, because everyone HAS to get insurance there is no reason for the rates to be dropped. Remember insurance companies are business out to make money for their share holders, that's all. Basically supply and demand says there is now a great demand for a product they are selling so they can charge whatever they want for the most part. And adding everyone to the insurance roles means there is actually more risk because there will be no more 'pre-existing condition' clauses. Do you really think that healthy people don't get cancer quickly? I know that around here a 3-week treatment cycle for my mom's breast cancer costs at least $28,000. Or my medical bills from an accidental fall came to over $10,000. Those are all insurance claims from people that would be considered healthy prior to those events. . . .

Tort reforms to allow interstate competition is what would actually bring the insurance premiums down as companies will have to compete for the business and the patients will have a true choice in what insurance they want. Once again we are back to putting the patient at the heart of actual reform.

What in the world are you talking about?! Rates for insurance are actually controlled by insurance commissions so a lot of what you're saying is patently false. And no...healthy people don't get cancer quickly! What does that even mean? I actually am a mammographer and diagnose cancer all day long. Cancer rates are pretty static. Even with insurance, healthy people are unlikely to seek medical care. They just pay for coverage which defrays the cost of care for people who actually use their coverage. If you don't understand what I am talking about, then you don't know how insurance has been working for the past 50 years. Eliminating the pre-existing condition clause decreases profits and may raise rates, but this will be offset by the vast increased number of customers, most of whom are healthy.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

This is the problem. We all know there are hypochondriacs in the doctor's office every day, but that's life. On the other hand I've been brushed off repeatedly by doctors who refuse to believe I'm anything but a hypochondriac. Muscle and joint pain so bad I sometimes cannot leave bed, fatigue so severe I sometimes can't get out of bed (yes I have a regular sleep schedule, have cut out all caffeine, etc.), and bouts of hair loss (which, yes, is a cosmetic issue and fortunately because my hair is thick in my case not a noticeable one, but is also a symptom of a problem elsewhere in the body) make it obvious there is something wrong with me. But again, because I don't appear to be dying, I have not gotten a diagnosis. I have no problem doing my own research on these and my many other symptoms to come up with some possibilities, but I am not a health care professional and obviously cannot diagnose or treat myself. Your average person, myself included, does know the difference between normal and not when it comes to their body. When something changes rapidly and radically (like totally healthy to daily moderate to severe pain) a patient can be reasonably certain there is something up and just because one or two tests don't present an immediate answer doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. I think if doctors would treat everyone the same-pay attention to them, order only necessary tests, and follow up quickly, those of us with a disorder or disease could be diagnosed and sent on our way with the correct treatment, and the hypochondriacs could be reassured that they are very healthy and could be sent on their way as well.

And I wouldn't call you a hypochondriac, but a lot of vague illnesses also are difficult to diagnose. The problem with our current health care system is that primary care physicians are NOT reimbursed to spend 20 minutes or more with a patient to figure out what is wrong with them if it isn't run of the mill hypertension or diabetes. That being said, you can get a referral to a specialist...I would recommend a rheumatologist given the symptoms you are complaining of. They even have research physicians at places like the NIH that specialize in hard to diagnose cases (kinda like House but not fake.) That being said, not everything is a sign of a disease. I think that losing hair may or may not be a problem. Joint pain/swelling for over 6 months is a problem and may be a sign of a serious disease. I wouldn't take no for an answer.

As for Beryana...If I am the reason you don't go to doctors, you are a fool.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by sako

How do Dems without jobs or money buy insurance?

Dems (or Reps or Inds or Libs or Jags) can purchase low cost individual insurance without having a job, you incredibly stupid racist fuck.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

And I wouldn't call you a hypochondriac, but a lot of vague illnesses also are difficult to diagnose. The problem with our current health care system is that primary care physicians are NOT reimbursed to spend 20 minutes or more with a patient to figure out what is wrong with them if it isn't run of the mill hypertension or diabetes. That being said, you can get a referral to a specialist...I would recommend a rheumatologist given the symptoms you are complaining of. They even have research physicians at places like the NIH that specialize in hard to diagnose cases (kinda like House but not fake.) That being said, not everything is a sign of a disease. I think that losing hair may or may not be a problem. Joint pain/swelling for over 6 months is a problem and may be a sign of a serious disease. I wouldn't take no for an answer.

As for Beryana...If I am the reason you don't go to doctors, you are a fool.

My point is spending a little more time to figure it out in the first place would decrease repeated visits and a lot of irritation on both ends. I realize a few people are going to come through with true mystery illnesses, but surely those are minority cases. Specialists that I have been referred to have been no more helpful than the two doctors I've been to before. Not taking no for an answer is easier said than done when doctors simply don't want to take the time to find the problem. I'll eventually find the right doctor but in the meantime it's frustrating to spend copious amounts of time and money shopping around, especially since I know it would be easier for a doctor that has already seen me to get a read on the problem than a new one who has to review my file and start from scratch. (For the record the only helpful hint I've gotten is actually from a family friend who is a doctor and suggested an autoimmune disease, and as the only disease in that category that can be ruled out in my case is HIV my next step is to present this theory to my doctor...we'll see how it goes this time.)

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by sako

How do ________ without money contribute to the pool?

Why did my car insurance go up to pay for people without insurance even though everyone is required to have insurance?

Trivia. Why do _________ drive Escalades without insurance? Answer: Da bitches and hoes don't care about insurance.

Good question. I've always wondered how the red neck trailer trash pos douchbag walmart shoppers without money and a grocery cart full of dirty disgusting kids contribute to the pool. Maybe they can start by getting a GED.

Great trivia. Good question I dunno. Maybe you can answer this triva question. Why do red neck trailer trash morons drive 20 year old pick up trucks without insurance? Probably because they're stupid and illiterate.

All they do is sit their jobless, lazy butts at home watching nascar and drinking the beer that I paid for.

It works both ways, you prick!