Dr. Henry Louis Gates Arrested

[agzg]

Am I correct to assume that the nieghborhood is affluent? If so, I would understand why the police would respond whether or not the "suspects" were black or white.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

"Yeah, I'll speak with your mama outside"

LOL

A cranky, offended, probably self-entitled, 58 yo Harvard professor.

I'm still unclear (maybe because I find this whole thing more funny than tragic) as to whether he was arrested for refusing to show proof of current address or because he an aggressive asswipe.

Originally Posted by Kevin

That is, unless anyone actually thinks that a burglary report of two white men with backpacks trying to force their way into a home would have been ignored by the Cambridge P.D.

People are saying that, when looking at the race dynamic, it is less likely that there would have been a burglary report in the first place. As stated in this thread, the neighbor might have been more inclined to assume it was a fellow neighbor struggling with the door, even to the point of going outside and asking the neighbor is she or he needs assistance.

There are definite pros and cons to neighbors having 911 on speed dial.

[Kevin]

As to whether she would have helped, I dunno... that's pure conjecture. If that's the hypo folks need to go with so they can talk about the travesty of race relations in this country, I suppose that's fantastic.

Reading the report and assuming, for the sake of argument that it's true (police telling lies in police reports is not exactly uncommon), Gates was behaving in a completely unreasonable manner. Even if he did think he was being discriminated against, berating the officer who is only responding to a call is not the way to handle that.

This whole thing reminds me of an old Chris Rock Show bit about "How Not to Get Your Ass Kicked by the Police." NSFW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

[SydneyK]

What makes the situation even more interesting is that the arresting officer is a police academy expert on racial profiling.

The more I read about this, the more inappropriate Obama's statement becomes. And the less convincing Gates' side of the story becomes, as well.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Reading the police report, [yeah, I know, police reports don't tend to always be completely accurate] there were certain statements, e.g. "Yeah, I'll speak with your mama outside" that would be hard for the officer to just invent. If even a portion of Dr. Gates' antics are true, it was Gates, not the police who initiated the racial aspect of this case.

Have you seen the picture of his arrest? He looks like he's yelling at some kids to get off his lawn, LOL.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Reading the police report, [yeah, I know, police reports don't tend to always be completely accurate] there were certain statements, e.g. "Yeah, I'll speak with your mama outside" that would be hard for the officer to just invent. If even a portion of Dr. Gates' antics are true, it was Gates, not the police who initiated the racial aspect of this case.

That is, unless anyone actually thinks that a burglary report of two white men with backpacks trying to force their way into a home would have been ignored by the Cambridge P.D.

Why would that be hard for an officer to invent?

I'm certainly not surprised at the reactions on here. I figured most of you would try to make Gates out to be the bad guy or a liar. However, based on what I have read from a copy of the report that I saw online, the cop has told a few lies. The cop originally said he was alone, yet now we know there were more cops on the scene.

Also, getting loud and asking for ID, again, is not disorderly conduct. Using common sense, with all the attention this has garnered, I don't necessarily think the charges would have been dropped if they were legitimate in the first place. They didn't just drop those charges because of who Gates is. They dropped them because they couldn't convict him. They didn't have enough. Furthermore, they had a slight problem...the cop refused to give his identifying information to Gates. Legally he can't do that.

For what it is worth, Massachusetts courts have limited the definition of disorderly conduct to: fighting or threatening, violent or tumultuous behavior, or creating a hazardous or physically offensive condition for no legitimate purpose other than to cause public annoyance or alarm. Dr. Gates was not causing public annoyance or alarm. He wasn't fighting or threatening. He wasn't violent. He did not create a hazardous or physically offensive condition. He was also not in public. The officer only arrested him once he stepped onto the porch. I don't think the porch qualifies as a public place.


Oh and Kevin, I don't know if you have realized it by now or not, but according to Gates and the cop, the cop asked if Gates had proof that he was a Harvard professor. Hence, Gates would have shown his Harvard ID for that purpose, and not as an asshole move.



The responses to this incident are further evidence of why race relations in this country will remain somewhat stagnant. if every single time an incident happens, people blow it off, no one will ever take a stance against racial profiling or the bigotry of the police. and for the record, I'm not saying that anyone should believe that EVERY incident involves racism.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

As to whether she would have helped, I dunno... that's pure conjecture. If that's the hypo folks need to go with so they can talk about the travesty of race relations in this country, I suppose that's fantastic.

When discussing social dynamics, since this isn't about the facts of this incident, there is no expectation of accurate conclusions on either side of the issue. It is a discussion that is rooted in observed patterns of social interaction. We don't know with absolute certainty that this was not about race and they don't know with absolute certainty that this was about race. And it really doesn't matter for the sake of discourse since none of us (hopefully...in this thread) are emotional and planning on staging a coup d'etat in response to this incident.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

I'm certainly not surprised at the reactions on here. I figured most of you would try to make Gates out to be the bad guy or a liar.

You would be surprised if you knew the diverse backgrounds, experiences, and fields of expertise of the people with whom you disagree.

ETA: Meaning, stop pretending as though you know enough about the people you are discussing this with to predict their opinions and responses.

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

However, based on what I have read from a copy of the report that I saw online, the cop has told a few lies. The cop originally said he was alone, yet now we know there were more cops on the scene.

Did the officer say that he was alone the entire time with Gates? I don't think that he did. Surely he knows that there were photos taken of Gates' arrest. The officer may have arrived first on the scene and he and Gates exchanged pleasantries before the other officers arrived. Again, we're all assuming so acknowledge it as assumptions.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

I'm certainly not surprised at the reactions on here. I figured most of you would try to make Gates out to be the bad guy or a liar.

...

The responses to this incident are further evidence of why race relations in this country will remain somewhat stagnant. if every single time an incident happens, people blow it off, no one will ever take a stance against racial profiling or the bigotry of the police. and for the record, I'm not saying that anyone should believe that EVERY incident involves racism.

Comments like these are the reason you get the responses you get. Just food for thought.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

Also, getting loud and asking for ID, again, is not disorderly conduct.

It very well could be, depending on the circumstances. You're basing your entire argument here on this sort of out-of-hand dismissal, which seems unwarranted at best and disingenuous at worst.

Using common sense, with all the attention this has garnered, I don't necessarily think the charges would have been dropped if they were legitimate in the first place.

Demonstrably false:

They didn't just drop those charges because of who Gates is.

... yet you've earlier argued that these charges would be dropped against a white person of similar stature. Hmm, interesting, and chock full o' bias and poor reasoning.

They dropped them because they couldn't convict him. They didn't have enough.

... or it's more trouble than it's worth, or the city didn't feel like assigning multiple prosecutors to defend against a high-powered, expensive and very public legal team over a couple hundred bucks, or they wanted it out of the news cycle because they would have to defend the cop rather than prosecute the accused, or . . .

Furthermore, they had a slight problem...the cop refused to give his identifying information to Gates. Legally he can't do that.

Aren't you in law school? This really may have very little bearing on the case - it may influence views on the officer's credibility, but if you know anything at all about witness credibility, you'd realize cops . . . have it. Implicitly. I'm not certain the "legal" ramifications of not giving your badge number include "throwing out the case" in this situation - are you?

For what it is worth, Massachusetts courts have limited the definition of disorderly conduct to: fighting or threatening, violent or tumultuous behavior, or creating a hazardous or physically offensive condition for no legitimate purpose other than to cause public annoyance or alarm. Dr. Gates was not causing public annoyance or alarm. He wasn't fighting or threatening. He wasn't violent. He did not create a hazardous or physically offensive condition. He was also not in public. The officer only arrested him once he stepped onto the porch. I don't think the porch qualifies as a public place.

Notice you left out "tumultuous" . . . is there a reason for that? Are you sure that a man yelling at a cop in his front yard causes no alarm?

Additionally, words can certainly escalate to the point where these definitions could be met. You're just saying "they didn't" without any real support is unconvincing.

The responses to this incident are further evidence of why race relations in this country will remain somewhat stagnant. if every single time an incident happens, people blow it off, no one will ever take a stance against racial profiling or the bigotry of the police. and for the record, I'm not saying that anyone should believe that EVERY incident involves racism.

You're not "saying" that - you're "showing" that, in every thread. You've never taken anything but a contrarian stance against those who bring up anything to suggest an incident might not have the explicit racial overtones you give it.

[DrPhil]

What is disorderly conduct and whether or not the person will get arrested depends on the circumstances and the officer's discretion.

I've seen some pretty ridiculous people who weren't violent with officers but were difficult and called the officers everything but a Child of God and the officers did not arrest them.

Sooooo...discussing why Gates was seen as disorderly enough to be arrested is accurate. Age and other factors play a role in officer discretion.

ETA: I'm not saying he should or should not have been arrested. I wouldn't see the funny arrest photo had he not been arrested.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

And we won't know the fully story as long as Crowley continues refusing to comment. If he was able to comment on the fact that he was disappointed in what Obama said, then he should just go ahead and "set the record straight" so to speak. Until then, we only have what we have read to go on, and based on that, he was being a jerk.

Have you read the police report?

[Kevin]

FWIW, I've consulted with people charged with disorderly conduct. I can appreciate the city's point of view. My advice to the client in every case was that my legal fee would be higher than their ticket and that they could either represent themselves and probably get convicted by the municipal judge or they could go down to the city and write a check filling out a nolo contendre plea.

At any rate, DeepImpact, no, you don't have a right to privacy in your identity, especially when an officer has probably cause to think you're committing a burglary. In this case, there was P.C. because a neighbor said that there were two black men with backpacks forcing their way into a house. Fixate all you want on the racial aspect, but that's P.C. regardless of race.

Like KSig said, unless there's some special rule in that jurisdiction which I'm aware of, what are you basing Gates' right to the badge number of the officer he was dealing with?

Based on the facts presented, the officer's report indicates that a prima facie case for disorderly conduct existed.

As to why that comment about the officer's mama would be so hard to invent, put yourself in that situation... now, imagine yourself trying to put words into the mouth of a suspect you're arresting. A 58-year-old prof at Harvard and you invent a "Yo mama" phrase? Either the officer is incredibly racist or he's telling the truth. Judging from his history in the department, he's probably telling the truth.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

What is disorderly conduct and whether or not the person will get arrested depends on the circumstances and the officer's discretion.

I've seen some pretty ridiculous people who weren't violent with officers but were difficult and called the officers everything but a Child of God and the officers did not arrest them.

Sooooo...discussing why Gates was seen as disorderly enough to be arrested is accurate. Age and other factors play a role in officer discretion.

ETA: I'm not saying he should or should not have been arrested. I wouldn't see the funny arrest photo had he not been arrested.

I think Gates was arrested so in the moment it would be clear who was the alpha male, which of course is not a good reason to arrest someone, but it probably doesn't have that much to do with Gates's race, IMO.

ETA: I think you are right that it's an officers call and it's unfortunate that Gates was, in my opinion based on what I've read, actually troublesome enough to be arrested and that the officer didn't just politely leave once he established that Gates's house wasn't being burglarized. Either guys handling the situation differently could have avoided this, now high profile situation.

The whole would-the-neighbor-have-called-the-cops-if-the-people-opening-the-door-were-white is probably open for debate, but since the answer is that it would be a good idea generally for people to do so (I'd like my neighbors to call the cops if they see people of any race forcing my door open), and she did do so in this case, it doesn't seem as racially charged to me as it might.

I just don't see this as being a good case to use to start a national discussion of race and police behavior. It might be a far better case to discuss the role of political influence in getting various legal outcomes.

[knight_shadow]

Just when I thought this thread couldn't become more of a trainwreck.

Yay.