Dr. Henry Louis Gates Arrested

[deepimpact2]

He is saying that the arrest was racially motivated. Based on the information in the article, I would agree. Yet another situation where people don't believe that a black man can live in a nice neighborhood or own a nice home. And I seriously wonder why this neighbor who called the cops didn't even recognize or know her own neighbor. I hope he pushes this further.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/21/us/21gates.html

[jojapeach]

Unbelievable and so disappointing.

[Kevin]

The article in Time mentioned another incident which happened 25 years ago. If one questionable incident happens every 25 years or so, how is that evidence of a pattern of conduct?

Both stories are plausible. If you get loud and obnoxious while conversing with a police officer, you are lucky to be walking away from that encounter not in handcuffs. I don't care what race you are. Being an Harvard professor doesn't make you special in that respect either.

Even if you believe Gates' account, both men were acting like asses and one of those men had a badge and handcuffs. At the end of the day, that trumps an Harvard ID card.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by Kevin

The article in Time mentioned another incident which happened 25 years ago. If one questionable incident happens every 25 years or so, how is that evidence of a pattern of conduct?

Both stories are plausible. If you get loud and obnoxious while conversing with a police officer, you are lucky to be walking away from that encounter not in handcuffs. I don't care what race you are. Being an Harvard professor doesn't make you special in that respect either.

Even if you believe Gates' account, both men were acting like asses and one of those men had a badge and handcuffs. At the end of the day, that trumps an Harvard ID card.

Why am i not surprised that you would say something like this?


It is a pattern of conduct because it happens around the country more than every 25 years. The issue is not whether the story is plausible. first of all would the neighbor have called if the man was white. Then once the cops SAW his identification and had PROOF that he lived in that house, why did they continue to bother him?

Gates wasn't being an ass. He was pissed because he was being accused of breaking into his own home.

Although it hasn't happened with a home, I had an incident happen to me that had similar racist overtones. I had used valet parking at a hotel. When I came down to retrieve my car, I showed the attendant my valet tag and he gave me the keys. As I was walking towards my car, ANOTHER attendant suddenly dashed over to me and angrily demanded that I show him my valet tag. I showed it to him. He then demanded to see my driver's license AND my registration. At this point I was pissed. I complied, but I let him know that I didn't appreciate his behavior. He had no reason to go to those lengths. Then as I was getting in he said, "well ma'am, I just wanted to make sure you weren't trying to drive off in someone's fancy BMW." Sickening, but it is a part of what many blacks go through in this country...even in 2009.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

Why am i not surprised that you would say something like this?

You are setting the tone for this discussion right now. Don't let this discussion go down the drain like every other discussion you participate in.

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

Although it hasn't happened with a home, I had an incident happen to me that had similar racist overtones. I had used valet parking at a hotel. When I came down to retrieve my car, I showed the attendant my valet tag and he gave me the keys. As I was walking towards my car, ANOTHER attendant suddenly dashed over to me and angrily demanded that I show him my valet tag. I showed it to him. He then demanded to see my driver's license AND my registration. At this point I was pissed. I complied, but I let him know that I didn't appreciate his behavior. He had no reason to go to those lengths. Then as I was getting in he said, "well ma'am, I just wanted to make sure you weren't trying to drive off in someone's fancy BMW." Sickening, but it is a part of what many blacks go through in this country...even in 2009.

So many questions:
Could this have been about your age? Did you LOOK (beyond race) that you would have a BMW? Could this have been about the valet wanting to do some quality assurance? Had there been some prior incidents? Perhaps it wouldn't have seemed racist if the other attendant was very polite and said "ma'am, it is standard practice to check IDs and registration for cars with a certain Kelly Blue Book value."

To put it in perspective:
I had someone question my presence in my family's neighborhood that we have lived in for almost 40 years. The particular white person who questioned my presence in the neighborhood was staying with her mother and she was known around the neighborhood to have some issues---so I was particularly annoyed that SHE was trying to be the gate keeper.

At the end of the day, it could've been because I'm Black and it may have been because she is an outsider with her head up her ass. I didn't take it to heart because the OTHER white neighbors who aren't visitors know who I am, who my family is, and wouldn't have asked me who I'm there to see. Plus, neighborhood watch efforts always have some "nosey neighbor" casualties.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

So many questions:
Could this have been about your age? Did you LOOK (beyond race) that you would have a BMW? Could this have been about the valet wanting to do some quality assurance? Had there been some prior incidents? Perhaps it wouldn't have seemed racist if the other attendant was very polite and said "ma'am, it is standard practice to check IDs and registration for cars with a certain Kelly Blue Book value."

I will say that I DO look young. As for doing quality assurance, on other occasions after that when I was waiting for my car to be retrieved, I did not notice the valet attendants requiring anyone else to show registration and some of the cars were "luxury cars." Their written policy stated that the only time they would ask for the customer to produce vehicle registration was when the customer could not produce a ticket that matched the valet stub placed in the car. Since I had my ticket, and I showed it to an attendant, I didn't see any need for them to ask for my registration.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

Why am i not surprised that you would say something like this?

I don't know. I suppose you could always explain why you are not surprised.

It is a pattern of conduct because it happens around the country more than every 25 years. The issue is not whether the story is plausible. first of all would the neighbor have called if the man was white. Then once the cops SAW his identification and had PROOF that he lived in that house, why did they continue to bother him?

The Time article focused on Cambridge and black Harvard faculty members. It had to reach back 25 years to find a similar incident. Going back 25 years is awfully stretchy if you're trying to make a case for conformity in conduct or having some sort of bad culture.

Gates wasn't being an ass. He was pissed because he was being accused of breaking into his own home.

Oh please. If I get pulled over for speeding, or even have the cops come to my house suspecting I just broke in, I, being a pretty well connected white guy, am not going to take a "Don't you know who I am?" approach. When dealing with law enforcement, that's just dumb. Those guys have wide discretion to make your life difficult, and at minimum, they can set you back a couple hundred bucks by writing you a ticket for disorderly conduct.

My friends and family who are police officers and judges and politicians and attorneys wouldn't think poorly of the cop for arresting me on the spot or further causing me grief. They'd more likely be surprised at my bad behavior than the cop's.

Showing your Harvard ID thinking that'll make the cops go away is Gates being an ass. The cop was being an ass as well. Both parties were acting badly here.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Kevin

The Time article focused on Cambridge and black Harvard faculty members. It had to reach back 25 years to find a similar incident. Going back 25 years is awfully stretchy if you're trying to make a case for conformity in conduct or having some sort of bad culture.

Showing your Harvard ID thinking that'll make the cops go away is Gates being an ass. The cop was being an ass as well. Both parties were acting badly here.

Cambridge is not a small town (in fact, it's much larger than the town in which I grew up), and they still had to go back 25 years to find a similar incident. Think about that.

I'm inclined to believe--and this is after I experienced a not too dissimilar incident just a few days ago--that everyone could have acted a little better. But that's just me.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

that everyone could have acted a little better. But that's just me.

I agree.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Showing your Harvard ID thinking that'll make the cops go away is Gates being an ass. The cop was being an ass as well. Both parties were acting badly here.

The only thing I would say to this is that it was Harvard-owned property, and I would hope/imagine the Cambridge police would be aware of that. By showing his Harvard ID, he may have just been hoping that it would turn on a light bulb with the police, like a "oh, ok, he may actually live here."

Again, maybe I'm being cynical, but I kind of expect most prominent people, in whatever field (acadmics, entertainment, business) to pull the old "let me take down your badge number" routine.

I'm not excusing behavior on either side, but I think there were a lot of factors at play.

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Cambridge is not a small town (in fact, it's much larger than the town in which I grew up), and they still had to go back 25 years to find a similar incident. Think about that.

Agreed - Cambridge is a fairly large city, over 100,000 residents, and that doesn't include the temporary residents (students, visiting professors, tourists, etc.) who are there on a daily basis. I used to do my daily run through Harvard and Cambridge when I lived close by, and there's always a bunch of people out and about, no matter the time of day (which make it seem even bigger).

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by Kevin

My friends and family who are police officers and judges and politicians and attorneys wouldn't think poorly of the cop for arresting me on the spot or further causing me grief. They'd more likely be surprised at my bad behavior than the cop's.

Showing your Harvard ID thinking that'll make the cops go away is Gates being an ass. The cop was being an ass as well. Both parties were acting badly here.

Being a pretty "well connected white guy," it is doubtful you would have to go through this/

And how is showing his Harvard ID a sign of Gates being an ass? They asked for identification. Furthermore, if the house was truly owned by Harvard, then it seems natural that he would also show his Harvard ID. That comment alone indicates that you just believe Gates was being an ass regardless, and that you aren't willing to look at the situation in a different light.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

you aren't willing to look at the situation in a different light.

Hello, Pot. Meet Kettle.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

Being a pretty "well connected white guy," it is doubtful you would have to go through this/

I've never really had a run in with the cops, but I lead a pretty boring life. I don't think I've ever done anything to draw attention to myself in that fashion.

And how is showing his Harvard ID a sign of Gates being an ass? They asked for identification. Furthermore, if the house was truly owned by Harvard, then it seems natural that he would also show his Harvard ID.

They clearly didn't need his school ID to figure out that he was the proper resident of the home. Drivers licenses in just about every state have the home address printed on them. That was more than enough.

That comment alone indicates that you just believe Gates was being an ass regardless, and that you aren't willing to look at the situation in a different light.

I don't see what sort of different light there could be. He was belligerent towards a police officer. His race probably had no bearing on the fact that he was arrested... but you can go ahead and assume otherwise if you like.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Both stories are plausible. If you get loud and obnoxious while conversing with a police officer, you are lucky to be walking away from that encounter not in handcuffs. I don't care what race you are. Being an Harvard professor doesn't make you special in that respect either.

Even if you believe Gates' account, both men were acting like asses and one of those men had a badge and handcuffs. At the end of the day, that trumps an Harvard ID card.

This was my initial response to the story. Gates was understandably angry and probably felt a "get the hell outta my house...do you know who the hell I am" attitude would fly with the officers.

Maybe it would have if he were white as long as he, as a white man, didn't put his hands on the officers. Who knows. I've seen white males with professional clout be extremely obnoxious with police officers, only for the officers to give them a pass because they are "somebody" in the community. It doesn't always happen but people are looking at patterns of behavior and not what happens 100% of the time.

As for the neighbor not recognizing him, that happens. I don't know the climate of that neighborhood and who the neighbor is. It is often the case that an unrecognizable Black male neighbor in a predominantly white neighborhood is more likely to be looked at suspiciously than an unrecognizable white male neighbor based on people's images of criminality. Again, this is based on patterns of behavior and not what happens 100% of the time.

As for racism, this is yet another incident that is way too introductory textbook for me to automatically call it racism. Either way, the actions of the neighbor and the actions of the officers can't necessarily be lumped together.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This was my initial response to the story. Gates was understandably angry and probably felt a "get the hell outta my house...do you know who the hell I am" attitude would fly with the officers.

Maybe it would have if he were white as long as he, as a white man, didn't put his hands on the officers. Who knows. I've seen white males with professional clout be extremely obnoxious with police officers, only for the officers to give them a pass because they are "somebody" in the community. It doesn't always happen but people are looking at patterns of behavior and not what happens 100% of the time.

As for the neighbor not recognizing him, that happens. I don't know the climate of that neighborhood and who the neighbor is. It is often the case that an unrecognizable Black male neighbor in a predominantly white neighborhood is more likely to be looked at suspiciously than an unrecognizable white male neighbor based on people's images of criminality. Again, this is based on patterns of behavior and not what happens 100% of the time.

As for racism, this is yet another incident that is way too introductory textbook for me to automatically call it racism. Either way, the actions of the neighbor and the actions of the officers can't necessarily be lumped together.

I have definitely heard of officers giving white males under similar circumstances a "pass" and even bending over backwards to apologize. And in many instances those white men would often say things like, "I'll have your job for this." Sure enough, sometimes they do "have their job." And no one makes a fuss or looks at the situation sideways.

As for the climate of the neighborhood, I totally understand what you mean. Interestingly enough my aunt and uncle live in a very wealthy neighborhood in Florida. Their neighbors have called the cops on several occasions after seeing them in the yard or driving in the neighborhood. When they first moved in, some white neighbors stopped by to welcome them. When my aunt opened the door, they thought she was the maid and asked if the "lady of the house" was home. The list goes on. I suspect that really is the type neighborhood that we are dealing with here.