Dr. Henry Louis Gates Arrested

[Kevin]

The massive assumption here is that this was about race. No one has proved that or even offered anything [other than their opinion] to suggest that race was a factor in anything here.

Or are we not talking about Gates anymore?

[Kevin]

The police report:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...092gates1.html

[Kevin]

Reading the police report, [yeah, I know, police reports don't tend to always be completely accurate] there were certain statements, e.g. "Yeah, I'll speak with your mama outside" that would be hard for the officer to just invent. If even a portion of Dr. Gates' antics are true, it was Gates, not the police who initiated the racial aspect of this case.

That is, unless anyone actually thinks that a burglary report of two white men with backpacks trying to force their way into a home would have been ignored by the Cambridge P.D.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

"Yeah, I'll speak with your mama outside"

LOL

A cranky, offended, probably self-entitled, 58 yo Harvard professor.

I'm still unclear (maybe because I find this whole thing more funny than tragic) as to whether he was arrested for refusing to show proof of current address or because he an aggressive asswipe.

Originally Posted by Kevin

That is, unless anyone actually thinks that a burglary report of two white men with backpacks trying to force their way into a home would have been ignored by the Cambridge P.D.

People are saying that, when looking at the race dynamic, it is less likely that there would have been a burglary report in the first place. As stated in this thread, the neighbor might have been more inclined to assume it was a fellow neighbor struggling with the door, even to the point of going outside and asking the neighbor is she or he needs assistance.

There are definite pros and cons to neighbors having 911 on speed dial.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Reading the police report, [yeah, I know, police reports don't tend to always be completely accurate] there were certain statements, e.g. "Yeah, I'll speak with your mama outside" that would be hard for the officer to just invent. If even a portion of Dr. Gates' antics are true, it was Gates, not the police who initiated the racial aspect of this case.

Have you seen the picture of his arrest? He looks like he's yelling at some kids to get off his lawn, LOL.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Reading the police report, [yeah, I know, police reports don't tend to always be completely accurate] there were certain statements, e.g. "Yeah, I'll speak with your mama outside" that would be hard for the officer to just invent. If even a portion of Dr. Gates' antics are true, it was Gates, not the police who initiated the racial aspect of this case.

That is, unless anyone actually thinks that a burglary report of two white men with backpacks trying to force their way into a home would have been ignored by the Cambridge P.D.

Why would that be hard for an officer to invent?

I'm certainly not surprised at the reactions on here. I figured most of you would try to make Gates out to be the bad guy or a liar. However, based on what I have read from a copy of the report that I saw online, the cop has told a few lies. The cop originally said he was alone, yet now we know there were more cops on the scene.

Also, getting loud and asking for ID, again, is not disorderly conduct. Using common sense, with all the attention this has garnered, I don't necessarily think the charges would have been dropped if they were legitimate in the first place. They didn't just drop those charges because of who Gates is. They dropped them because they couldn't convict him. They didn't have enough. Furthermore, they had a slight problem...the cop refused to give his identifying information to Gates. Legally he can't do that.

For what it is worth, Massachusetts courts have limited the definition of disorderly conduct to: fighting or threatening, violent or tumultuous behavior, or creating a hazardous or physically offensive condition for no legitimate purpose other than to cause public annoyance or alarm. Dr. Gates was not causing public annoyance or alarm. He wasn't fighting or threatening. He wasn't violent. He did not create a hazardous or physically offensive condition. He was also not in public. The officer only arrested him once he stepped onto the porch. I don't think the porch qualifies as a public place.


Oh and Kevin, I don't know if you have realized it by now or not, but according to Gates and the cop, the cop asked if Gates had proof that he was a Harvard professor. Hence, Gates would have shown his Harvard ID for that purpose, and not as an asshole move.



The responses to this incident are further evidence of why race relations in this country will remain somewhat stagnant. if every single time an incident happens, people blow it off, no one will ever take a stance against racial profiling or the bigotry of the police. and for the record, I'm not saying that anyone should believe that EVERY incident involves racism.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

I'm certainly not surprised at the reactions on here. I figured most of you would try to make Gates out to be the bad guy or a liar.

You would be surprised if you knew the diverse backgrounds, experiences, and fields of expertise of the people with whom you disagree.

ETA: Meaning, stop pretending as though you know enough about the people you are discussing this with to predict their opinions and responses.

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

However, based on what I have read from a copy of the report that I saw online, the cop has told a few lies. The cop originally said he was alone, yet now we know there were more cops on the scene.

Did the officer say that he was alone the entire time with Gates? I don't think that he did. Surely he knows that there were photos taken of Gates' arrest. The officer may have arrived first on the scene and he and Gates exchanged pleasantries before the other officers arrived. Again, we're all assuming so acknowledge it as assumptions.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

You would be surprised if you knew the diverse backgrounds, experiences, and fields of expertise of the people with whom you disagree.

ETA: Meaning, stop pretending as though you know enough about the people you are discussing this with to predict their opinions and responses.



.

It isn't difficult to get an idea about people from their responses. So far I have yet to be surprised. People are pretty much giving the responses I expected them to give. I understand that there are diverse backgrounds here, but some common denominators typically result in the same opinions and responses. this is one reason why I can understand where Sotomayor was coming from with the statement that she got flamed for. Many individuals on this board do not experience the kind of racism that certain minorities in this country experience. With that being the case, they are typically far less open to the notion that racism is as prevalent as it is, or they can only recognize blatant forms of racism. Despite the fact that you claim that many of the people I disagree with have expertise and diverse backgrounds, the fact remains that their responses and opinions are pretty much the generic responses of whites who either don't care that racism exists, want to sweep it under the rug instead of being faced with it, or as mentioned previously, actually require blatant forms of racism. Some of these very people that you speak of are so obstinate in their negative opinions of Dr. Gates that it leaves to question whether they are racist themselves. For the record, while I don't think all cops are bad, this situation to me reeks of racism and abuse of police power.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

Despite the fact that you claim that many of the people I disagree with have expertise and diverse backgrounds, the fact remains that their responses and opinions are pretty much the generic responses of whites who either don't care that racism exists, want to sweep it under the rug instead of being faced with it, or as mentioned previously, actually require blatant forms of racism.

Except several of the people that disagree aren't "whites who don't care" about the situation. There are several minorities who have responded (to this thread and others) that just don't see the point in crying "racism" for every event that happens in the world.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

It isn't difficult to get an idea about people from their responses. So far I have yet to be surprised. People are pretty much giving the responses I expected them to give. I understand that there are diverse backgrounds here, but some common denominators typically result in the same opinions and responses. this is one reason why I can understand where Sotomayor was coming from with the statement that she got flamed for. Many individuals on this board do not experience the kind of racism that certain minorities in this country experience. With that being the case, they are typically far less open to the notion that racism is as prevalent as it is, or they can only recognize blatant forms of racism. Despite the fact that you claim that many of the people I disagree with have expertise and diverse backgrounds, the fact remains that their responses and opinions are pretty much the generic responses of whites who either don't care that racism exists, want to sweep it under the rug instead of being faced with it, or as mentioned previously, actually require blatant forms of racism. Some of these very people that you speak of are so obstinate in their negative opinions of Dr. Gates that it leaves to question whether they are racist themselves. For the record, while I don't think all cops are bad, this situation to me reeks of racism and abuse of police power.

I personally think both sides were in the wrong. However I would like ot say this. Yes racism exist and can still be found in the world. But I hate people who see any kind of situation between a white man and a person of color and automatically yell out "Racism." regardless of any facts. To me that is just racism of another kind, the whole "White people are evil" point of view. I am sick and tired of it, though nobody ever mentions racism against white people.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

Some of these very people that you speak of are so obstinate in their negative opinions of Dr. Gates that it leaves to question whether they are racist themselves.

Again, when all else fails, you decide to label as "racist" those who disagree with your point of view.

This is starting to become a running theme.

ETA: It's a shame too, because you say some things in your posts that are intelligent, well-thought, and correct. Racism is still an issue in this country, and sometimes it's things that not everyone can see. It's not always one blatant incident - it could be a pattern of behavior, or more subtle actions.

The problem is, in your posts you're very quick to characterize people based on their disagreements with you. You don't know the posters on this board. Yet, you're making a judgment about what kind of person they are because of their disagreements with you. It makes it very difficult to debate you, because you seem to be willing to drop labels on people at a certain point in the debate.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

Many individuals on this board do not experience the kind of racism that certain minorities in this country experience. With that being the case, they are typically far less open to the notion that racism is as prevalent as it is, or they can only recognize blatant forms of racism. Despite the fact that you claim that many of the people I disagree with have expertise and diverse backgrounds, the fact remains that their responses and opinions are pretty much the generic responses of whites who either don't care that racism exists, want to sweep it under the rug instead of being faced with it, or as mentioned previously, actually require blatant forms of racism.

So you have to experience to be able to give an experienced professional opinion on it?

Is there a certain level of racsim that you have to experience that would allow your thoughts to weight heavier than others?

So, why post this if you knew what you were going to get and then flame people that gave their (rehearsed and as you call it generic) responses to the situation?


I guess for this case, "It's a Black thing" and those who are non Black would just have to understand, hmmm?

As you get older and more experienced with life you have to know when (not) to play the race game especially in murky situations such as this one when both sides behave badly.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

It isn't difficult to get an idea about people from their responses.

Yes, it is.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

I'm certainly not surprised at the reactions on here. I figured most of you would try to make Gates out to be the bad guy or a liar.

...

The responses to this incident are further evidence of why race relations in this country will remain somewhat stagnant. if every single time an incident happens, people blow it off, no one will ever take a stance against racial profiling or the bigotry of the police. and for the record, I'm not saying that anyone should believe that EVERY incident involves racism.

Comments like these are the reason you get the responses you get. Just food for thought.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

Also, getting loud and asking for ID, again, is not disorderly conduct.

It very well could be, depending on the circumstances. You're basing your entire argument here on this sort of out-of-hand dismissal, which seems unwarranted at best and disingenuous at worst.

Using common sense, with all the attention this has garnered, I don't necessarily think the charges would have been dropped if they were legitimate in the first place.

Demonstrably false:

They didn't just drop those charges because of who Gates is.

... yet you've earlier argued that these charges would be dropped against a white person of similar stature. Hmm, interesting, and chock full o' bias and poor reasoning.

They dropped them because they couldn't convict him. They didn't have enough.

... or it's more trouble than it's worth, or the city didn't feel like assigning multiple prosecutors to defend against a high-powered, expensive and very public legal team over a couple hundred bucks, or they wanted it out of the news cycle because they would have to defend the cop rather than prosecute the accused, or . . .

Furthermore, they had a slight problem...the cop refused to give his identifying information to Gates. Legally he can't do that.

Aren't you in law school? This really may have very little bearing on the case - it may influence views on the officer's credibility, but if you know anything at all about witness credibility, you'd realize cops . . . have it. Implicitly. I'm not certain the "legal" ramifications of not giving your badge number include "throwing out the case" in this situation - are you?

For what it is worth, Massachusetts courts have limited the definition of disorderly conduct to: fighting or threatening, violent or tumultuous behavior, or creating a hazardous or physically offensive condition for no legitimate purpose other than to cause public annoyance or alarm. Dr. Gates was not causing public annoyance or alarm. He wasn't fighting or threatening. He wasn't violent. He did not create a hazardous or physically offensive condition. He was also not in public. The officer only arrested him once he stepped onto the porch. I don't think the porch qualifies as a public place.

Notice you left out "tumultuous" . . . is there a reason for that? Are you sure that a man yelling at a cop in his front yard causes no alarm?

Additionally, words can certainly escalate to the point where these definitions could be met. You're just saying "they didn't" without any real support is unconvincing.

The responses to this incident are further evidence of why race relations in this country will remain somewhat stagnant. if every single time an incident happens, people blow it off, no one will ever take a stance against racial profiling or the bigotry of the police. and for the record, I'm not saying that anyone should believe that EVERY incident involves racism.

You're not "saying" that - you're "showing" that, in every thread. You've never taken anything but a contrarian stance against those who bring up anything to suggest an incident might not have the explicit racial overtones you give it.