Old South

[SWTXBelle]

KA HQ has made it quite clear that they do not allow their members to use the Battle flag. So the chapter should immediately cease doing so, and should not do it in the future. That issue has been decided by KA themselves, so it should be easily resolved.

C.S.A uniforms in and of themselves are not racist - I would argue that given that slavery was totally abolished in the states of the C.S.A. years before it was abolished in the four slave-holding states of the Union (a fun fact that many don't know or chose to ignore) that it makes more logical sense to be offended by Union blue. That said, if the men of KA had chosen to march on the AKA house in uniform for the purpose of disrupting their function then I could certainly understand AKA being upset. But from all the reporting I've read, it appears that it was a case of unfortunate timing. KA has apologized, and I would hope AKA would graciously accept it. The spokeswoman for AKA acknowledged that she did not believe the men were trying to be racist.

As to what to do next year, were I a KA advisor I would either try to schedule KA Old South on a weekend when AKA did not have a major event planned, or let AKA know when the Old South date pick-up would occur so they could schedule their events, or perhaps revamp the way date pick-up occurs. I am sure Robert E. Lee would wish for the gentlemen of KA to do all they can reasonably be expected to do to honour the sensibilities of the ladies of AKA.

eta - And I wish hoop skirts would come back into style. They hide a multitude of sins!

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I would argue that given that slavery was totally abolished in the states of the C.S.A. years before it was abolished in the four slave-holding states of the Union (a fun fact that many don't know or chose to ignore) that it makes more logical sense to be offended by Union blue.

Not to turn this into a historical debate, I hope you see the logical problems with this argument...

I think we all understand that slavery was prevalent in the North, and that the abolitionists were disliked in areas of the North...but again, I think there are some issues with your statement. It seems more like you're making an overstatement to get across a point that the Union wasn't perfect (which, admittedly, it wasn't).

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Not to turn this into a historical debate, I hope you see the logical problems with this argument...

I think we all understand that slavery was prevalent in the North, and that the abolitionists were disliked in areas of the North...but again, I think there are some issues with your statement. It seems more like you're making an overstatement to get across a point that the Union wasn't perfect (which, admittedly, it wasn't).

No overstatement - it's a fact. Since I'm speaking factually, I wouldn't say slavery was prevalent in the North (in the 1860s), nor that abolitionists were popular.

I was referring to the FACT that while slavery was outlawed by the Emancipation Proclamation in the unoccupied states of the C.S.A. it continued to be legal in the slave-owning states in the Union. After the War slavery was totally abolished by Consitutional Amendment. Given that historical fact, it is illogical to equate the uniform of the CSA with slavery. I understand the emotional response that some groups have, but my whole point is that it is not a logical one. It isn't about anybody being perfect - it is indeed about logic. I would be interested in what you regard as illogical in my statement that since slavery was outlawed in the CSA before the USA it would actually be more logically valid to argue that the Union Army uniform should be considered racist.

FWIW, I think the entire American culture north and south was racist in the sense we are discussing, and that it is ultimately detrimental to try and cast "good" and "bad" guys - the whole issue is far more complex than that, and I have found that those who buy into the whole "North was morally superior" mindset fail to recognize the larger societal issues raised by the idea that maybe the entire country had a problem, and not just the scrapegoat South.

[SWTXBelle]

All of this makes me think back to the Sons of Confederate Veterans Ball I attended at their Reunion in Nashville a few years back. We had many gentlemen wearing CSA uniforms, and tons of belles. At the same hotel a black family was having a large family reunion. Some of the family members came into the lobby area where we were, and asked what was going on. I overheard one national officer explaining the purpose of the SCV to an interested man of about 30 - 40. We had a historical band play, and were dancing. Some of the younger reunion family members stuck their heads in, and we invited them to dance. It was quite a sight to see them doing the Virginia Reel with the costumed SCV participants!

I'm not saying that the ladies of AKA will ever feel like taking a turn around the dance floor with the gentlemen of KA - I will say that when you engage in a sincere dialogue with well-meaning people you will often discover that perceived animosity and stereotypes aren't necessarily the reality.

[Beryana]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

All of this makes me think back to the Sons of Confederate Veterans Ball I attended at their Reunion in Nashville a few years back. We had many gentlemen wearing CSA uniforms, and tons of belles. At the same hotel a black family was having a large family reunion. Some of the family members came into the lobby area where we were, and asked what was going on. I overheard one national officer explaining the purpose of the SCV to an interested man of about 30 - 40. We had a historical band play, and were dancing. Some of the younger reunion family members stuck their heads in, and we invited them to dance. It was quite a sight to see them doing the Virginia Reel with the costumed SCV participants!

Somewhat similar and off the CSA topic but similar in ways. . . Every year in February there is a big reenactor/living historian conference held in the Chicago area. Time periods run Roman through VietNam. This year there was a booking goof up and one of the rooms we had reserved was also booked for a Bar Mitzvah (we were booked a year out, etc)! Anyway, there are a LOT of German reenactors that attend this convention and we had to do some smaller things on our part because one of the Bar Mitzvah guests was a Holocaust survivor. Needless to say, that was a situation where we didn't mingle and the hotel even put up a barricade so there would be no mingling on Saturday night at the ball. The German reenactors were fine with only wearing their tunics/jackets and caps while within the designated rooms so it was all good - we definitely did not want to cause distress to an 80 year old woman! Common sense does go a long way.

The mystery and crime writers' conference did enjoy mingling with us.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

No overstatement - it's a fact. Since I'm speaking factually, I wouldn't say slavery was prevalent in the North (in the 1860s), nor that abolitionists were popular.

I was referring to the FACT that while slavery was outlawed by the Emancipation Proclamation in the unoccupied states of the C.S.A. it continued to be legal in the slave-owning states in the Union. After the War slavery was totally abolished by Consitutional Amendment. Given that historical fact, it is illogical to equate the uniform of the CSA with slavery. I understand the emotional response that some groups have, but my whole point is that it is not a logical one. It isn't about anybody being perfect - it is indeed about logic. I would be interested in what you regard as illogical in my statement that since slavery was outlawed in the CSA before the USA it would actually be more logically valid to argue that the Union Army uniform should be considered racist.

FWIW, I think the entire American culture north and south was racist in the sense we are discussing, and that it is ultimately detrimental to try and cast "good" and "bad" guys - the whole issue is far more complex than that, and I have found that those who buy into the whole "North was morally superior" mindset fail to recognize the larger societal issues raised by the idea that maybe the entire country had a problem, and not just the scrapegoat South.

My issue with your logic was in saying that it makes more sense to be offended by Union blue. I should have just bolded that part of your statement when I responded to it. ETA: I also was probably a bit too direct in my comment - sorry if it came off rude.

I do agree, however, that there were issues with the entire culture at that time, and that it's wrong to romanticize one side or the other. There were problems in both the Union and the Confederacy, and it's useless and wrong to demonize either.

For what it's worth, I don't see all that much "North was morally superior" mindset in the North, and I've lived here my whole life. Most people I know up here will readily admit that the Union (and Lincoln for that matter) had some serious flaws during that time period.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I am sure Robert E. Lee would wish for the gentlemen of KA to do all they can reasonably be expected to do to honour the sensibilities of the ladies of AKA.

And that's all I've been trying to say.

I really will be quiet on this topic now.

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

And that's all I've been trying to say.

I really will be quiet on this topic now.

I'm hoping to be quiet now, too.

I would be interested in knowing what the various posters think should happen now -