Old South

[SWTXBelle]

KA HQ has made it quite clear that they do not allow their members to use the Battle flag. So the chapter should immediately cease doing so, and should not do it in the future. That issue has been decided by KA themselves, so it should be easily resolved.

C.S.A uniforms in and of themselves are not racist - I would argue that given that slavery was totally abolished in the states of the C.S.A. years before it was abolished in the four slave-holding states of the Union (a fun fact that many don't know or chose to ignore) that it makes more logical sense to be offended by Union blue. That said, if the men of KA had chosen to march on the AKA house in uniform for the purpose of disrupting their function then I could certainly understand AKA being upset. But from all the reporting I've read, it appears that it was a case of unfortunate timing. KA has apologized, and I would hope AKA would graciously accept it. The spokeswoman for AKA acknowledged that she did not believe the men were trying to be racist.

As to what to do next year, were I a KA advisor I would either try to schedule KA Old South on a weekend when AKA did not have a major event planned, or let AKA know when the Old South date pick-up would occur so they could schedule their events, or perhaps revamp the way date pick-up occurs. I am sure Robert E. Lee would wish for the gentlemen of KA to do all they can reasonably be expected to do to honour the sensibilities of the ladies of AKA.

eta - And I wish hoop skirts would come back into style. They hide a multitude of sins!

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I would argue that given that slavery was totally abolished in the states of the C.S.A. years before it was abolished in the four slave-holding states of the Union (a fun fact that many don't know or chose to ignore) that it makes more logical sense to be offended by Union blue.

Not to turn this into a historical debate, I hope you see the logical problems with this argument...

I think we all understand that slavery was prevalent in the North, and that the abolitionists were disliked in areas of the North...but again, I think there are some issues with your statement. It seems more like you're making an overstatement to get across a point that the Union wasn't perfect (which, admittedly, it wasn't).

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Not to turn this into a historical debate, I hope you see the logical problems with this argument...

I think we all understand that slavery was prevalent in the North, and that the abolitionists were disliked in areas of the North...but again, I think there are some issues with your statement. It seems more like you're making an overstatement to get across a point that the Union wasn't perfect (which, admittedly, it wasn't).

No overstatement - it's a fact. Since I'm speaking factually, I wouldn't say slavery was prevalent in the North (in the 1860s), nor that abolitionists were popular.

I was referring to the FACT that while slavery was outlawed by the Emancipation Proclamation in the unoccupied states of the C.S.A. it continued to be legal in the slave-owning states in the Union. After the War slavery was totally abolished by Consitutional Amendment. Given that historical fact, it is illogical to equate the uniform of the CSA with slavery. I understand the emotional response that some groups have, but my whole point is that it is not a logical one. It isn't about anybody being perfect - it is indeed about logic. I would be interested in what you regard as illogical in my statement that since slavery was outlawed in the CSA before the USA it would actually be more logically valid to argue that the Union Army uniform should be considered racist.

FWIW, I think the entire American culture north and south was racist in the sense we are discussing, and that it is ultimately detrimental to try and cast "good" and "bad" guys - the whole issue is far more complex than that, and I have found that those who buy into the whole "North was morally superior" mindset fail to recognize the larger societal issues raised by the idea that maybe the entire country had a problem, and not just the scrapegoat South.

[SWTXBelle]

All of this makes me think back to the Sons of Confederate Veterans Ball I attended at their Reunion in Nashville a few years back. We had many gentlemen wearing CSA uniforms, and tons of belles. At the same hotel a black family was having a large family reunion. Some of the family members came into the lobby area where we were, and asked what was going on. I overheard one national officer explaining the purpose of the SCV to an interested man of about 30 - 40. We had a historical band play, and were dancing. Some of the younger reunion family members stuck their heads in, and we invited them to dance. It was quite a sight to see them doing the Virginia Reel with the costumed SCV participants!

I'm not saying that the ladies of AKA will ever feel like taking a turn around the dance floor with the gentlemen of KA - I will say that when you engage in a sincere dialogue with well-meaning people you will often discover that perceived animosity and stereotypes aren't necessarily the reality.

[Beryana]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

All of this makes me think back to the Sons of Confederate Veterans Ball I attended at their Reunion in Nashville a few years back. We had many gentlemen wearing CSA uniforms, and tons of belles. At the same hotel a black family was having a large family reunion. Some of the family members came into the lobby area where we were, and asked what was going on. I overheard one national officer explaining the purpose of the SCV to an interested man of about 30 - 40. We had a historical band play, and were dancing. Some of the younger reunion family members stuck their heads in, and we invited them to dance. It was quite a sight to see them doing the Virginia Reel with the costumed SCV participants!

Somewhat similar and off the CSA topic but similar in ways. . . Every year in February there is a big reenactor/living historian conference held in the Chicago area. Time periods run Roman through VietNam. This year there was a booking goof up and one of the rooms we had reserved was also booked for a Bar Mitzvah (we were booked a year out, etc)! Anyway, there are a LOT of German reenactors that attend this convention and we had to do some smaller things on our part because one of the Bar Mitzvah guests was a Holocaust survivor. Needless to say, that was a situation where we didn't mingle and the hotel even put up a barricade so there would be no mingling on Saturday night at the ball. The German reenactors were fine with only wearing their tunics/jackets and caps while within the designated rooms so it was all good - we definitely did not want to cause distress to an 80 year old woman! Common sense does go a long way.

The mystery and crime writers' conference did enjoy mingling with us.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

No overstatement - it's a fact. Since I'm speaking factually, I wouldn't say slavery was prevalent in the North (in the 1860s), nor that abolitionists were popular.

I was referring to the FACT that while slavery was outlawed by the Emancipation Proclamation in the unoccupied states of the C.S.A. it continued to be legal in the slave-owning states in the Union. After the War slavery was totally abolished by Consitutional Amendment. Given that historical fact, it is illogical to equate the uniform of the CSA with slavery. I understand the emotional response that some groups have, but my whole point is that it is not a logical one. It isn't about anybody being perfect - it is indeed about logic. I would be interested in what you regard as illogical in my statement that since slavery was outlawed in the CSA before the USA it would actually be more logically valid to argue that the Union Army uniform should be considered racist.

FWIW, I think the entire American culture north and south was racist in the sense we are discussing, and that it is ultimately detrimental to try and cast "good" and "bad" guys - the whole issue is far more complex than that, and I have found that those who buy into the whole "North was morally superior" mindset fail to recognize the larger societal issues raised by the idea that maybe the entire country had a problem, and not just the scrapegoat South.

My issue with your logic was in saying that it makes more sense to be offended by Union blue. I should have just bolded that part of your statement when I responded to it. ETA: I also was probably a bit too direct in my comment - sorry if it came off rude.

I do agree, however, that there were issues with the entire culture at that time, and that it's wrong to romanticize one side or the other. There were problems in both the Union and the Confederacy, and it's useless and wrong to demonize either.

For what it's worth, I don't see all that much "North was morally superior" mindset in the North, and I've lived here my whole life. Most people I know up here will readily admit that the Union (and Lincoln for that matter) had some serious flaws during that time period.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I am sure Robert E. Lee would wish for the gentlemen of KA to do all they can reasonably be expected to do to honour the sensibilities of the ladies of AKA.

And that's all I've been trying to say.

I really will be quiet on this topic now.

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

And that's all I've been trying to say.

I really will be quiet on this topic now.

I'm hoping to be quiet now, too.

I would be interested in knowing what the various posters think should happen now -

[Nanners52674]

I have an honest question and I might be stepping on a bees nest asking it. But the rebel flag in my mind (as a New Englander) is a rebel flag of the C.S.A.

It very well could be my general lack of Civil War knowledge but I've never fully understood how the Rebel Flag came to be a sign of slavery.

[Beryana]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

I have an honest question and I might be stepping on a bees nest asking it. But the rebel flag in my mind (as a New Englander) is a rebel flag of the C.S.A.

It very well could be my general lack of Civil War knowledge but I've never fully understood how the Rebel Flag came to be a sign of slavery.

What you are thinking of as the 'Confederate Flag' is actually the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. The Confederate States of America actually had three different national flags that were used over the course of the country's existence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_flag

[SWTXBelle]

KSig, I spent about 1/3 of my childhood/teen years in New Jersey. Trust me when I say that the mindset of which I spoke was VERY evident. If I had a nickel for every time I heard "Well, at least we WON the war!" after being subjected to being insulted for merely being from the south I would be a very wealthy woman. It may be that as a southerner I was subjected to this, while you as a native born yankee were not. There have been more historians presenting more balanced views of the Late Unpleasantness since the 70s I think - perhaps things are better now. I hope so.

I'd still argue my logic is spot-on. If the primary premise is that 1.) Having slavery legal = racism, and the secondary premise is 2.)The Union had legal slavery, then a logical conclusion is that Union = Racism. You can plug in C.S.A. and get the same result - and my point is that no one would have had a problem with Upsilon Alpha (see what I did there? Union Army?!) coming past the AKA house in Union blue. (Although if you have read any of Sherman's very own reports in U.S. military records, you might think differently.) If I have unwittingly slipped into a logical fallacy please let me know which one. (Bear in mind I teach logic, so if you call my logic into question I am going to ask you to let me know exactly how it fails!)

Nanners - the Battle Flag (I prefer 3rd National myself) has been used by the KKK and other groups in racially-charged situations. That is one reason it has come to be associated with racism. I would point out, in the interest of fairness, that these same groups are also rather fond of the Stars and Stripes. As a proud southerner I am appalled any time any symbols of the C.S.A. are used by any racist groups. I consider it an insult to the memory of my ancestors.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

KSig, I spent about 1/3 of my childhood/teen years in New Jersey. Trust me when I say that the mindset of which I spoke was VERY evident. If I had a nickel for every time I heard "Well, at least we WON the war!" after being subjected to being insulted for merely being from the south I would be a very wealthy woman. It may be that as a southerner I was subjected to this, while you as a native born yankee were not. There have been more historians presenting more balanced views of the Late Unpleasantness since the 70s I think - perhaps things are better now. I hope so.

I'd still argue my logic is spot-on. If the primary premise is that 1.) Having slavery legal = racism, and the secondary premise is 2.)The Union had legal slavery, then a logical conclusion is that Union = Racism. You can plug in C.S.A. and get the same result - and my point is that no one would have had a problem with Upsilon Alpha (see what I did there? Union Army?!) coming past the AKA house in Union blue. (Although if you have read any of Sherman's very own reports in U.S. military records, you might think differently.) If I have unwittingly slipped into a logical fallacy please let me know which one. (Bear in mind I teach logic, so if you call my logic into question I am going to ask you to let me know exactly how it fails!).

You said it made more logical sense to be offended by Union blue than it did by Confederate uniforms. You never said the two were equal. If you said the two were equal, then I can understand that statement a little more.

ETA: I'll respect the fact that you teach logic...but I do know a little about the Civil War, having been a history major in college and studied under a scholar in the subject. So I guess we could probably teach each other quite a bit.

Originally Posted by AOEforme

On the other hand, if I had a nickle for every time I heard that same exact phrase from Southerners, I'd stop worrying about paying for med school and my summer trip to Europe.

A lot of my family is from Mizzou, Georgia, and Alabama, and I'll hear that constantly from them or other people when I'm visiting. ("You know WE really won the war, right?")

Exactly - you hear things along these lines in both the North and South. I like visiting the South and have enjoyed my time there, but it never fails that I'll get comments from complete strangers along the same lines when I'm down there. To say it happens more frequently in one area than the other is incorrect.

[SWTXBelle]

To clarify - it makes MORE sense if you weigh the fact that the Union had slavery LONGER than the CSA. Sorry if I wasn't more clear - and while that makes more logical sense, my ultimate point is that it's silly to get into that particular contest, since both sides were guilty of the same sin. I didn't think you were rude, btw.

As to history - I met my husband doing living history presentations for local schools. (I played a resident of occupied New Orleans - he was a hateful Yankee a la Beast Butler's school of charm.) He is a history professor who is the protege of Tuffly Ellis, and is a published WBTS scholar. Not the same thing as having the degrees myself, but I am surrounded by a great deal of the stuff, and you'd be surprised at what constitutes dinner conversation 'round here.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Beryana

What you are thinking of as the 'Confederate Flag' is actually the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.

Or the second navy jack -- same basic design, but rectangular rather than square and no white border.

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

It very well could be my general lack of Civil War knowledge but I've never fully understood how the Rebel Flag came to be a sign of slavery.

As SWTXBelle says, it's not really so much a symbol of slavery per se. But thanks to the way that the battle flag/navy jack ("the Confederate/Rebel flag") was used/co-opted by white supremacist groups like the Klan and by those opposing desegregation, it became associated with white supremacy and Jim Crowism.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

As a proud southerner I am appalled any time any symbols of the C.S.A. are used by any racist groups. I consider it an insult to the memory of my ancestors.

Ditto.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Exactly - you hear things along these lines in both the North and South. I like visiting the South and have enjoyed my time there, but it never fails that I'll get comments from complete strangers along the same lines when I'm down there. To say it happens more frequently in one area than the other is incorrect.

No kidding. Between my college boyfriend being from South Carolina, a ton of cousins in Georgia and Virginia, and my current boyfriend's family in Florida, I've been called Yankee more times than I can count. Um, I'm from Washington state, which wasn't even a state until 1889! Leave us out of it!