Drug Testing for welfare recipients

[AGDee]

You can't join the military when you're 50 and have health problems. I think you're thinking of a totally different population than the people who are losing their jobs right now. The military is absolutely not an option for everybody. My brother was turned down in his 20's with his Masters in Health Administration because he had high blood pressure.

Moving to a foreign country would be an interesting proposition. No jobs in America? Then leave. Leave the best country in the world, seriously? I would never ever consider living in any other country. I don't see that as an option for the majority of people.

Our school districts sure aren't hiring. They're cutting back. And, you need a teacher's certificate to teach. PhDs don't generally have teaching certificates or an ability to teach. Unless you're referring to teaching at the university level. With as difficult as it is to get student loans right now, I imagine college enrollments will be dropping some and I don't think Universities are going to be hiring either.

The people I know who are getting laid off are mechanical engineers, chemical engineers, statisticians, accountants, finance specialists, marketing, management.. mostly in their late 40s and early 50s. They have careers and skills but there aren't enough jobs for them all. They aren't qualified to teach anywhere because they are Masters level people. They have aging parents they are caring for and kids in high school and college. They definitely aren't in the position to walk away from their houses and family to find a new job.

I know one guy who works on the line for Ford. He worked in Michigan and his family was all here. He got involuntarily transferred to Kansas City and for the last THREE years has been maintaining two households because they can't sell their house and don't want to pull their kids out of their schools as teenagers to live in a studio apartment in Kansas City, which is all they can afford if they don't sell their house. He keeps hoping to get a transfer back here. I just see people panicking everywhere. When you go from a 6 figure income to $346 a week, you can't make your bills, even if you lived modestly. If you have a family of 5, you can't make it on $346 a week.

It's looking like major doom and gloom again. I felt hopeful for a while, but all around me, people are panicking.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

If you have a PhD and you cant get ANY other job then the military is always in need of people and you'll make much more than you can on unemployment. You wont make what you're worth, but you'll make enough to survive.

Do you think it's so easy to waltz right into the military?

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Do you think it's so easy to waltz right into the military?

I'm no expert, but isn't anyone who is considering going into the military required to get certain scores on an entrance-type test (with certain branches requiring different scores)? I can't remember the name. It's not something you can just "do."

[I.A.S.K.]

Originally Posted by AGDee

You can't join the military when you're 50 and have health problems. I think you're thinking of a totally different population than the people who are losing their jobs right now. The military is absolutely not an option for everybody. My brother was turned down in his 20's with his Masters in Health Administration because he had high blood pressure.
I'm thinking of the people who are commonly on welfare. Most of these people are not 50 year old people with multiple degrees. If you have health issues CLEARLY the military is not an option.
Moving to a foreign country would be an interesting proposition. No jobs in America? Then leave. Leave the best country in the world, seriously? I would never ever consider living in any other country. I don't see that as an option for the majority of people.
It may be the best country, but if its not the best for you then you need to make moves.
Our school districts sure aren't hiring. They're cutting back. And, you need a teacher's certificate to teach. PhDs don't generally have teaching certificates or an ability to teach. Unless you're referring to teaching at the university level. With as difficult as it is to get student loans right now, I imagine college enrollments will be dropping some and I don't think Universities are going to be hiring either.
I was speaking more so about universities. There are plenty of them that would hire a PhD over a person with a lesser education for the same amount.
The people I know who are getting laid off are mechanical engineers, chemical engineers, statisticians, accountants, finance specialists, marketing, management.. mostly in their late 40s and early 50s. They have careers and skills but there aren't enough jobs for them all. They aren't qualified to teach anywhere because they are Masters level people. They have aging parents they are caring for and kids in high school and college. They definitely aren't in the position to walk away from their houses and family to find a new job.
Again we're speaking of the few you know. They are not the majority. The welfare system was not designed for the purpose of helping 40-50 year old people with degrees and ASSETS. I don't see any person being eligible for welfare if they have assets.
I know one guy who works on the line for Ford. He worked in Michigan and his family was all here. He got involuntarily transferred to Kansas City and for the last THREE years has been maintaining two households because they can't sell their house and don't want to pull their kids out of their schools as teenagers to live in a studio apartment in Kansas City, which is all they can afford if they don't sell their house. He keeps hoping to get a transfer back here. I just see people panicking everywhere. When you go from a 6 figure income to $346 a week, you can't make your bills, even if you lived modestly. If you have a family of 5, you can't make it on $346 a week.
There are options that a family that has two residences has that a single mother with no job and no residence doesn't. If you have a home that you can't sell you can rent the home out. You can rent a room out to bring in extra money. Again, there are options.
It's looking like major doom and gloom again. I felt hopeful for a while, but all around me, people are panicking.

Maybe that is the difference between people around you and people around me. People around me aren't panicing. If you have a PhD and you're not smart enough to make it through tough times you need to step up to the learning curve.

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Do you think it's so easy to waltz right into the military?

No, I never said its easy. Its hard work. If you need work then you should be willing to do what is necessary to get work.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

I think that this will decrease efficiency in many ways. The cost will be huge and I think that the number of drug users will turn out to be insignificant (as in the amount wouldnt be enough to warrent all the testing). I'd say less than 20 percent of people on welfare are on drugs so that means that you'll be paying for 80% of the people to take tests (an inconviencing them) when they really dont need them. If you're going to test you'd have to do so randomly and multiple times in the year (because if you just scheduled it then people would be able to "beat" the test). And if these are tests where the person goes into a closed room and is not monitored then they could cheat the test as well. Then there is the issue of what you're going to do after a person has failed the test. Are you going to simply kick them off of welfare and let them fend for themselves? That doesnt seem likely because most of the people on welfare have children (or are in some way or another incapable of caring for themselves) and it is defeating the purpose to make more children homeless because of their parents drug use. If you do just completely cut them off then you have to spend money to increase law enforcement and place more stress and need for money on the court system because crime will surely go up. These children will end up in foster care which is already streched to its limits and thus that will need more funding. If you don't outright kick them off of welfare then it would make lawmakers look like idiots for having known drug users on welfare taking up tax dollars and not do anything about it. This means that they'd have to put more money into rehab programs (that druggies may or may not want to get into and that may or may not be successful). If rehab doesnt work out then you're back to the original point where you either kick them off of welfare and place the burden elsewhere or keep them on welfare and look like a complete idiot. And the big kicker is that all of this will be over only 1/5 of the people actually on welfare. More of the dollars that are going into welfare are ultimately going to be used by those that deserve them the least. So that means that 1/5 of the people then are pushed to the forefront of an issue that already has a plethora of image issues. Now the image of welfare suffers damage and even fewer tax payers will want to pay for it while it needs more tax payer dollars.



@bolded:
Im willing to bet that the education level on average of welfare recipients is a high school diploma (though that is changing now with the economy where it is). So, the people on welfare being highly educated is probably specific to your state or very few states.

Welfare was not designed for highly educated highly capable people. Unemployment can only go so far and it can only help so much. This program wasnt made to help everyone out. If you have a PhD my expectations of what you should be doing for yourself without the government are much higher. Our schools are in desperate need of teachers and our military needs people as well. If you have a PhD then it is my opinion that you have far more options than a person with no education does. There are plenty of foreign countries and companies that need educated people. They need doctors and lawyers and professors. Your opportunities are so much more vast with a masters or a PhD that honestly I am much less concerned about you than I am about someone who is uneducated. The military wont take you if you dont at least have a highschool diploma or the equivilant. If you have a PhD and you cant get ANY other job then the military is always in need of people and you'll make much more than you can on unemployment. You wont make what you're worth, but you'll make enough to survive.

I wasn't really remarking specifically about people on welfare. It was a bit of a hijack. I agree with you that for the most part people on welfare probably do not have education. My remarks were about unemployed people in general. The attitude you have toward the unemployed is the same as that of the leaders of this country for the past decade, and frankly it's just not as progressive as we need to address the issues of today. I'm of the opinion that we DO need to care about educated people that are unemployed, just as much as we need to care about people that don't have a hs diploma or college degree. If there are no jobs for people with a college degree, what incentive is there for people to get educated? Also, our society cannot exist just on restaurant workers, baristas, lawyers and doctors. We NEED other high wage-earning jobs and the professions that earn them. We should be very worried when the only jobs in our country are at quick serve restaurants.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Moving to a foreign country would be an interesting proposition. No jobs in America? Then leave. Leave the best country in the world, seriously? I would never ever consider living in any other country. I don't see that as an option for the majority of people.

The people I know who are getting laid off are mechanical engineers, chemical engineers, statisticians, accountants, finance specialists, marketing, management.. mostly in their late 40s and early 50s. They have careers and skills but there aren't enough jobs for them all. They aren't qualified to teach anywhere because they are Masters level people. They have aging parents they are caring for and kids in high school and college. They definitely aren't in the position to walk away from their houses and family to find a new job.

Not to mention that it is VERY hard to get a job in most foreign countries legally. In the EU, for instance, you basically must be sponsored by an employer in order to get a work visa. We make it MUCH easier for foreigners to get a job here.

Engineers, some of the smartest people in the work force, in this country are experiencing rough times. We basically outsourced our engineering to people from other countries, because our corporations wanted to cut, cut, cut spending. My boyfriend, who is seriously a freakin' genius, has an aerospace engineering degree from Michigan and an MBA as well, and he is terrified about losing his job at a large airplane manufacturer. It took him 14 years to get in there, and now that he's finally been there for 3 years he has to worry about losing his job to the economy. He used to be a rocket scientist! It shouldn't be hard for someone like that to get a good job in this country! If he, and his colleagues, lose their jobs, where are they (as aerospace engineers) supposed to go? Government contractors are laying off, NASA has even outsourced most of its work on-site to contractors. And that's just one field of engineering.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

In the EU, for instance, you basically must be sponsored by an employer in order to get a work visa. We make it MUCH easier for foreigners to get a job here.

It's the same in the U.S. actually, employers petition for visas on behalf of the immigrant.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by madmax

I bet they have a cell phone, rims, HD TV and an X-box.

True story- Last week I was at a Wal-mart neighborhood market and the lady in front of me used a Lone Star Card ( Food stamps in Texas) in the checkout. I was only buying some steaks for dinner so I walked out right behind her, and saw her getting into a brand new Caddilac CTS. For reals. I think the whole welfare debate is a no win situation, especially with the economy going to hell more people are going to be defrauding the system.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

I'm no expert, but isn't anyone who is considering going into the military required to get certain scores on an entrance-type test (with certain branches requiring different scores)? I can't remember the name. It's not something you can just "do."

It's called the ASVAB, and if you score so low to the point that the military won't take you I suggest maybe you just pack it in. A retarded monkey can pass that test.

[madmax]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

True story- Last week I was at a Wal-mart neighborhood market and the lady in front of me used a Lone Star Card ( Food stamps in Texas) in the checkout. I was only buying some steaks for dinner so I walked out right behind her, and saw her getting into a brand new Caddilac CTS. For reals. I think the whole welfare debate is a no win situation, especially with the economy going to hell more people are going to be defrauding the system.

She probably didn't have insurance. That is they way they roll.

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

True story- Last week I was at a Wal-mart neighborhood market and the lady in front of me used a Lone Star Card ( Food stamps in Texas) in the checkout. I was only buying some steaks for dinner so I walked out right behind her, and saw her getting into a brand new Caddilac CTS. For reals. I think the whole welfare debate is a no win situation, especially with the economy going to hell more people are going to be defrauding the system.

Given today's economic world, this may not be a situation of fraud, but moreso a case of living beyond one's means and having the bottom fall out (job loss).

But I see what you're saying though because I do know some people who sell the use of their card for cash. It could have been that too (her using someone else's card).

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Honeykiss1974

Given today's economic world, this may not be a situation of fraud, but moreso a case of living beyond one's means and having the bottom fall out (job loss).

But I see what you're saying though because I do know some people who sell the use of their card for cash. It could have been that too (her using someone else's card).

Or it could have been someone else's car.

[nikki1920]

Just FYI, for SNAP benefits, we dont look at resources, such as vehicles.
/soapbox/rant
If we were able to do that, a lot of people would be denied for being over resources. I am driving a 2000 Jeep, I work full time and am barely making it. It pisses me off to see some of my clients who claim to not be working driving 2009 model whatevers.
/end soapbox/rant

[madmax]

Do away with welfare. Problem solved. Welfare recipients are a waste of good air.

[DaemonSeid]

And then what, genius?

Here is the hard part, you do away with welfare and then you have millions who are un (and under) qualified to work, so what do you do with them?

File for unemployment?

It's not that easy to "just do away with it"

As much as I hate seeing people taking advantage of the system, if you just kick a few million people ('trailer trash' and 'hoods rats' alike) off the roles, then the govt will have a much more dangerous precedent they are setting.