If Hazing is Wrong, what's a better alternative?

[msl2008]

Well actually kansas city i'm an alumni and i'm not really involved with my chapter as much anymore. i just always found these types of discussions very interesting from when i was active so i would just like to hear differing opinions and see if i can find any good enough to make me change my mind regarding certain things about pledging.

to answer some of your questions as best as i can, i believe that humans have untapped potential that can only be reached when you hit a certain threshhold and you're pushed to the limit. we always hear about stories about extraordinary things humans do in times of danger or peril or when they are confronted with obstacles. these things are what i want to base a pledging process on.

yelling: the way i see it yelling is a good way for someone to learn to perform under pressure. it's always easy to do things when in a controlled environment but think about how much better you can be if you learn to get rid of your nerves and perform things when someone is in your face.

humiliation: i think that being humiliated can be an eye opening experience. if you go thru life and you're always worshipped and everyone always says you're right and you always get positive reinforcement, eventually you begin to believe that you're all that. just look at all the athletes and movie stars. b/c we idolize them they all think they're above the law and are special or something. what makes them any better than you or me? that's why i think humiliation can sometimes can be an equalizer b/c it shows that you're not really all you think you are and it can be a humbling experience.

physical exercises: when you mess up and nothing happens, how are you supposed to learn from your mistakes? if you're punished or better yet, if someone in your pledge class is punished for your mistake, i think you are more unlikely to make the same mistake twice b/c you know the consequences. if you put your hand over a fire and burn your hand, you won't do that again right? same concept. if you don't like this you can always quit too right?

now obviously all of these things need to be controlled and i realize that with all the deaths etc things have gotten out of hand. however, for govts to completely define every little thing as hazing, i just think that is going a little extreme. obviously we don't want anyone to die and stuff like that. but to call everything hazing is just making things worse b/c now i don't see much challenge in the pledging process.

for those of you who werent hazed and were even showered with gifts the entire time, i'm curious as to if you really improved much as a person. what did you learn in pledging that helped you become a different person after pledging and before pledging? for me, i learned how to push myself to the limit and perform under pressure and learned to be humble. i gained lots of confidence in myself and my grades improved b/c i learned how to manage my time since you always had to be ready for actives calling you up so i learned to do things in advance.

and kansas city, it's not like the hierarchy is always going to be supervisor/subordinate for the whole entire time. it's only at most like 8-10 weeks for the pledges to prove themselves. after that then everyone is on equal footing.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by msl2008

this is not like someone is forcing you to do something. you can always walk away if you want.

Herein lies the problem. "You can always walk away if you want." That's sad. I have seen some amazing people walk away from great fraternities. Students with 3.8 GPAs, who are president of student government, who are on sports teams, who help with the community... they all walked away because someone decided that making them do pushups, throwing food on them, yelling at them, and degrading them was a good way of measuring their worth as a person. One of my friends who attended another school was very excited about joining a fraternity. He knew I was in a sorority, so he came to me for specific questions. He did his research online. He asked numerous questions of brothers, including, "Do you haze?" and he was lied to when he asked. He pledged for 3 days before he decided it wasn't for him, and he wasn't extremely disappointed. I hear a ridiculous amount of fraternity (and some sorority) members say, "They obviously couldn't handle it." No, they just didn't want to be degraded and humiliated in front of a bunch of people with whom they're trying to become friends.

Originally Posted by msl2008

to answer some of your questions as best as i can, i believe that humans have untapped potential that can only be reached when you hit a certain threshhold and you're pushed to the limit. we always hear about stories about extraordinary things humans do in times of danger or peril or when they are confronted with obstacles. these things are what i want to base a pledging process on.

yelling: the way i see it yelling is a good way for someone to learn to perform under pressure. it's always easy to do things when in a controlled environment but think about how much better you can be if you learn to get rid of your nerves and perform things when someone is in your face.

humiliation: i think that being humiliated can be an eye opening experience. if you go thru life and you're always worshipped and everyone always says you're right and you always get positive reinforcement, eventually you begin to believe that you're all that. just look at all the athletes and movie stars. b/c we idolize them they all think they're above the law and are special or something. what makes them any better than you or me? that's why i think humiliation can sometimes can be an equalizer b/c it shows that you're not really all you think you are and it can be a humbling experience.

physical exercises: when you mess up and nothing happens, how are you supposed to learn from your mistakes? if you're punished or better yet, if someone in your pledge class is punished for your mistake, i think you are more unlikely to make the same mistake twice b/c you know the consequences. if you put your hand over a fire and burn your hand, you won't do that again right? same concept. if you don't like this you can always quit too right?

now obviously all of these things need to be controlled and i realize that with all the deaths etc things have gotten out of hand. however, for govts to completely define every little thing as hazing, i just think that is going a little extreme. obviously we don't want anyone to die and stuff like that. but to call everything hazing is just making things worse b/c now i don't see much challenge in the pledging process.

for those of you who werent hazed and were even showered with gifts the entire time, i'm curious as to if you really improved much as a person. what did you learn in pledging that helped you become a different person after pledging and before pledging? for me, i learned how to push myself to the limit and perform under pressure and learned to be humble. i gained lots of confidence in myself and my grades improved b/c i learned how to manage my time since you always had to be ready for actives calling you up so i learned to do things in advance.

and kansas city, it's not like the hierarchy is always going to be supervisor/subordinate for the whole entire time. it's only at most like 8-10 weeks for the pledges to prove themselves. after that then everyone is on equal footing.

Untapped potential: I had some before I joined the sorority. And what do you know... it came out when I joined. And I was never yelled at or forced to do pushups. Sometimes, when you present an opportunity to good people who are willing to work hard, they rise above.

Yelling: Why does someone have to learn the Greek alphabet under pressure? I actually learned this right after I received my bid, knowing that I'd probably want to know what the other Greek organization's names are. And I knew I'd probably have to learn it, anyway. Why not choose people who don't need to be yelled at to motivate them?

Humiliation: Your example of movie stars and athletes is ridiculous. I'd think I was "all that" too if I was watched by millions of people, making millions of dollars. Who wouldn't be excited about that?! You're making it sound as if that's what we're getting as new members. I wasn't showered with gifts every time I answered a question correctly. The amazing thing is, when you're in a new member meeting, and you can't answer any of the questions correctly, while your fellow new members are answering all of them, sometimes, that's humiliation enough. Knowing that you're behind the curve can motivate people. And if you're choosing the right new members, then it should.

Physical exercises: You ask, "When you mess up, how are you supposed to learn from your mistakes?" If I ask a new member, "Name the 8 founders," and they can only name 6, making them drop to the floor to give me 20 is ridiculous. Why not, oh, I don't know... ask them to study more?! The ultimate goal is initiation. If they mess up enough, they don't get initiated. It's that easy.

The thing that I find funny is that you think becoming a better person all happens during pledging. If that's the case, I feel bad for you. Pledging is maybe 2 months long. If you think those two months completely define you as a fraternity/sorority member, you obviously don't get it.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by msl2008

to answer some of your questions as best as i can, i believe that humans have untapped potential that can only be reached when you hit a certain threshhold and you're pushed to the limit. we always hear about stories about extraordinary things humans do in times of danger or peril or when they are confronted with obstacles. these things are what i want to base a pledging process on.

People achieve extraordinary things in these settings because they HAVE to. These skills aren't necessary in a Greek organization.

humiliation: i think that being humiliated can be an eye opening experience. if you go thru life and you're always worshipped and everyone always says you're right and you always get positive reinforcement, eventually you begin to believe that you're all that. just look at all the athletes and movie stars. b/c we idolize them they all think they're above the law and are special or something. what makes them any better than you or me? that's why i think humiliation can sometimes can be an equalizer b/c it shows that you're not really all you think you are and it can be a humbling experience.

Celebrities are put on a pedestal because the general public puts them there. It's not because of a lack of humiliation on their part. A singer doesn't suddenly become a true artist because of a humiliating situation.

physical exercises: when you mess up and nothing happens, how are you supposed to learn from your mistakes? if you're punished or better yet, if someone in your pledge class is punished for your mistake, i think you are more unlikely to make the same mistake twice b/c you know the consequences. if you put your hand over a fire and burn your hand, you won't do that again right? same concept. if you don't like this you can always quit too right?

Physical excersise is not (and should not) be punishment. There are other ways to "punish" someone for not performing. I do well in class because I want an A, not because I'm scared that the teacher will kick my ass. Teachers are able to "punish" those who aren't performing by withholding a reward (in this case, a higher grade).

now obviously all of these things need to be controlled and i realize that with all the deaths etc things have gotten out of hand. however, for govts to completely define every little thing as hazing, i just think that is going a little extreme. obviously we don't want anyone to die and stuff like that. but to call everything hazing is just making things worse b/c now i don't see much challenge in the pledging process.

I think you're hitting two different issues here. I agree that several things that are classified as hazing shouldn't be. However, as I stated previously,
the government wouldn't have had to get involved and institute these rules if things hadn't gotten out of hand already.

for those of you who werent hazed and were even showered with gifts the entire time, i'm curious as to if you really improved much as a person. what did you learn in pledging that helped you become a different person after pledging and before pledging? for me, i learned how to push myself to the limit and perform under pressure and learned to be humble. i gained lots of confidence in myself and my grades improved b/c i learned how to manage my time since you always had to be ready for actives calling you up so i learned to do things in advance.

I had to endure some questionable activity when I came into my organization, but honestly, the events just led to interesting stories. I've proven myself by living up to my organization's ideals and working for and on behalf of my organization. Several people that I know who have gone through rough pledge programs have gone ghost, so how do you explain that? Being subjected to hazing is not an automatic ticket to good brotherhood.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by msl2008

i think in both instances whether you haze or do not haze you will get good members and you will get bad members. i just think that something more difficult then learning history or doing philanthropies should be incorporated into a pledging process. i guess it's with the fact that i always saw greeks as being beyond the fact of who you are or who you know or what your gpa is but it could be something where people from various backgrounds can all start with a clean slate and go thru the same process and not have it matter who you were before pledging. picking and choosing members is good and all but i think then you will tend to choose people like yourself. i believe that everyone should be given a fair chance and the only way for that is to have them all go through the same process.

This doesn't make sense. If both hazing and non-hazing activities have the same results, there's no justification to haze. Also, everyone can go through the same process without it including hazing.

maybe that's what gets at me is the fact that i look at a lot of greek organizations with the same types of people and think, "oh, these guys or girls got in b/c of who they knew or how high their gpa was." giving an equal chance by going thru a physical and psychological pledge process would be fair imo. people will say that's a disadvantage to fat people or whatnot but in those cases you would structure the program to meet their needs. the whole point is pushing people to a higher level that they previously thought was impossible and in that regard, i think physical pledging would be beneficial as a confidence booster.

If you structure the program to fit the needs of certain individuals, how is that holding everyone to the same standards? And when did it become a bad thing to be known as the organization that has several members with high GPAs?

well my whole point is that physical pledging would be subjective. i would not expect a fat guy to do 50 pushups at once or run 3 miles but at the first event i would probably give him 10 pushups and have him run half a mile and try to build him up eventually to the 50 level goal. thus, even though it's a "punishment" for not knowing information or not completing a task, it can definitely serve as a confidence booster when at the end of the process he sees how far he's come. on the same token, when a football player starts pledging, first event i would tell him to do 50 and work him to 100 by the end of his process. the whole point i'm trying to make is push people to their limits. i'm not sure if you guys can understand what i'm thinking but i think the ideal pledge process would involve both mental and physical tasks so that way you get a vast # of different types of people. and i know what you're thinking kansas city when you say that physical would only let the "strong, fit" pledges survive but that's why i think it's important to incorporate other aspects. having philanthropies, study sessions, w/e is great, but i think it should be supplemented by something more physical. any ideas on a hybrid system to challenge all aspects of a persons being?

How does someone pushing himself to do more pushups prove how he will perform as a brother? It doesn't.

From your definitive stance, I would think your chapter has already implemented a hybrid program. Why would you need ideas? Why not tell us what works instead of giving hypotheticals?