Prop 8 Nov. 15 Protest

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Sometimes the "societal" and legal frameworks overlap. Sometime the legal framework is used to force changes in the societal framework.

I hope this makes how I've been looking at this make more sense as well.

It does!

[DrPhil]

It was just a matter of communication.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

The only reason this issue cropped up for me was because I took offense at the picture KSig RC used. Like I said above, it was just propaganda to illicit a response.

Fair enough, if you feel that way - but I think the response I intended to elicit ("civil union" is a massive cop out to make people feel better, and doesn't actually solve anything) is well worth drawing into the conversation. Whether you feel that is 'propaganda' is solely discretionary on you.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

If people want to be gay - fine. I will not ever try to stop them. I just draw the line at gay marriage. I will not support that based on a moral issue.

This is completely fair (and should have comprised most of your first posts), as well, although I feel you're coming from the wrong angle solely because I don't want this specific type of morality to govern law. You do. There's room for reasonable people to disagree on that front.

You have taken the comparison much further than I ever did, though, which seems like a classic "YMMV" scenario.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

If the issue of gay marriage is so compelling, then it is an issue that can stand on it's own. It does not need 'help' from another major issue. Does that make sense?

This makes perfect sense, and I'm totally fine with this - actually, this completely clarifies where you're coming from, and I'm much more clear on your previous posts. I think it's a strawman argument, but that's certainly up for debate - again, I find that comparison has utility for certain (humongous) segments of the population who are willing to make a "false dilemma" compromise on an issue they have very little perspective to deal with, as most people think in comparative terms rather than absolute terms. YMMV.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I just draw the line at gay marriage. I will not support that based on a moral issue.

If they want civil unions / domestic partnerships, I'm actually okay with that.

So you're saying that separate but equal is okay?

[preciousjeni]

Can someone explain to me why heterosexual couples have the right to be married?

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

If people want to be gay - fine. I will not ever try to stop them. I just draw the line at gay marriage. I will not support that based on a moral issue.

Providing rights for citizens, both gay and straight, is not the same as supporting gay marriage or condoning it.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Can someone explain to me why heterosexual couples have the right to be married?

Because our states allow it.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by kstar

So you're saying that separate but equal is okay?

Only if you assume civil unions = marriage, which I don't.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Can someone explain to me why heterosexual couples have the right to be married?

Kevin answered it based on the legal right. And that legal right is mostly based on the perceived moral and religious rights. The dependents and economic stuff are mixed up in there, too.

Sidebars:

It annoys me when people say "if gays can be married, what's stopping someone from marrying their dog or their toaster?" Uh...equating humans marrying each other to marrying an animal or an inanimate object is just...insulting and dumb. It is exaggerated moral outrage used to invoke fear of the "unknown" and perceived moral decline.

However, I have seen people begin to wonder if other types of marriages will be re-introduced to the mainstream. I watched the special on polygamy the other day and the people were like "we're not saying everyone else should do this...just don't try to stop us from doing it." Some of them were doing it for religious reasons and their kids were also home schooled. For whatever the reason, should these people have a legal right to marry more than one person, since their inability to do was initially based on a moral argument? What would be the social, political, and economic implications if this was to become a big case? Some people argue that this stuff is similar to the gay marriage issues, obviously not the same. I can only see the similarity at the abstract "what constitutes 'rights'" level. Polygamists are certainly not an oppressed minority group in the strict definition of the phrase.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Providing rights for citizens, both gay and straight, is not the same as supporting gay marriage or condoning it.

I agree.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Can someone explain to me why heterosexual couples have the right to be married?

Kevin gave one answer. The other is that the Bible supports a heterosexual marriage.

Yes PJ, there are those people who live to the letter of the Bible. I go to church with some of them.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

The other is that the Bible supports a heterosexual marriage.

A good Christian such as myself gets confused by all the things the Bible is claimed as supporting. Racism, gay bashing (that's not what you're talking about, I know), patriarchy and male dominance...the list goes on.....

[preciousjeni]

A general comment...I often imagine what would happen if the Apostle Paul showed up (with his bad temper and all) and saw what the "church" has done with the gospel. He'd be sending some pretty nasty letters...or e-mails.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

However, I have seen people begin to wonder if other types of marriages will be re-introduced to the mainstream. I watched the special on polygamy the other day and the people were like "we're not saying everyone else should do this...just don't try to stop us from doing it." Some of them were doing it for religious reasons and their kids were also home schooled. For whatever the reason, should these people have a legal right to marry more than one person, since their inability to do was initially based on a moral argument? What would be the social, political, and economic implications if this was to become a big case? Some people argue that this stuff is similar to the gay marriage issues, obviously not the same. I can only see the similarity at the abstract "what constitutes 'rights'" level. Polygamists are certainly not an oppressed minority group in the strict definition of the phrase.

Looking at it just from a legal standpoint, I think that this is a very valid question to raise. Generally speaking, the legal analysis doesn't turn on whether a group is oppresed or not; it's been turning on how the equal protection clauses of state constitutions have been interpreted and applied.

Under equal protection clauses, generally speaking, all citizens are entitled to have the law applied to them in an equal manner. The state cannot apply the law differently to different people (or classes of people) unless it has a sufficient reason (based on neutral rather than discriminatory intent) for treating people differently. In the case of certain groups ("suspect classes" is the term of art), such as racial or religious minorities, the state has a much higher burden -- it has to show not only that it has a very important interest at stake, but also that it has chosen the least-restrictive means it could to meet that interest.

So, for gay marriage, the argument goes like this: the state issues marriage licenses and recognizes the marriages of heterosexual couples. The state does not have a sufficiently important interest in limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples. Because the state does not have a sufficiently important reason for so doing, the equal protection provision of the state constitution forbids the state from limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples and requires the state to recognize the marriages of same-sex couples.

If a state court agrees with that argument, it is not a long trip to the next lawsuit: the state issues marriage licenses and recognizes the marriages of two people. The state does not have a sufficiently important interest in limiting marriage to only couples. Because the state does not have a sufficiently important reason for so doing, the equal protection provision of the state constitution forbids the state from limiting marriage to couples and requires the state to recognize marriages between three (or more) people.

The last argument might not win. But I have no doubt it will be brought in a court somewhere.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Looking at it just from a legal standpoint, I think that this is a very valid question to raise. Generally speaking, the legal analysis doesn't turn on whether a group is oppresed or not; it's been turning on how the equal protection clauses of state constitutions have been interpreted and applied.

Under equal protection clauses, generally speaking, all citizens are entitled to have the law applied to them in an equal manner. The state cannot apply the law differently to different people (or classes of people) unless it has a sufficient reason (based on neutral rather than discriminatory intent) for treating people differently. In the case of certain groups ("suspect classes" is the term of art), such as racial or religious minorities, the state has a much higher burden -- it has to show not only that it has a very important interest at stake, but also that it has chosen the least-restrictive means it could to meet that interest.

So, for gay marriage, the argument goes like this: the state issues marriage licenses and recognizes the marriages of heterosexual couples. The state does not have a sufficiently important interest in limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples. Because the state does not have a sufficiently important reason for so doing, the equal protection provision of the state constitution forbids the state from limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples and requires the state to recognize the marriages of same-sex couples.

If a state court agrees with that argument, it is not a long trip to the next lawsuit: the state issues marriage licenses and recognizes the marriages of two people. The state does not have a sufficiently important interest in limiting marriage to only couples. Because the state does not have a sufficiently important reason for so doing, the equal protection provision of the state constitution forbids the state from limiting marriage to couples and requires the state to recognize marriages between three (or more) people.

The last argument might not win. But I have no doubt it will be brought in a court somewhere.

Thanks for clarifying. The legal standpoint is what I meant by the abstract "what constitutes 'rights'" level.