Prop 8 Nov. 15 Protest

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I believe his point is that "Separate but Equal" was proven to be wrong a long time ago.

So what does it have to do with gay marriage?

[OtterXO]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

So what does it have to do with gay marriage?

That creating a separate set of rights for a homosexual couple who wants to marry (i.e. labeling them civil unions, domestic partners, etc.) is not equal to the right for heterosexuals to legally marry.

And for the record, Munchkin, up above, is right. A lot of money and time was put into the No on Prop 8 campaign. The Yes on Prop 8 campaign had a lot of money to spend and it was effective, especially since most of it was spent on scare tactics saying that gay marriage would be taught in schools (despite the CA Superintendent of Schools saying just the opposite was true .) Just because people are protesting now doesn't mean they weren't doing anything before and all of a sudden, post-election, have decided that they care about the issue.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by OtterXO

That creating a separate set of rights for a homosexual couple who wants to marry (i.e. labeling them civil unions, domestic partners, etc.) is not equal to the right for heterosexuals to legally marry.

So are there gay water fountains and straight water fountains?

Separate but equal was created based on racial identity - something for which no one can choose.

I just don't agree with the idea that gays have 'separate but equal' issues when it comes to marriage. Besides, the only people who I've seen tried to push the separate but equal argument where the issue of gay marriage is "equal to" racial inequality are white gay people.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

So are there gay water fountains and straight water fountains?

Separate but equal was created based on racial identity - something for which no one can choose.

I just don't agree with the idea that gays have 'separate but equal' issues when it comes to marriage. Besides, the only people who I've seen tried to push the separate but equal argument where the issue of gay marriage is "equal to" racial inequality are white gay people.

Plus me.

But something tells me you're not really checking for the black gay opinion in the first place.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

Plus me.

But something tells me you're not really checking for the black gay opinion in the first place.

LOL. You beat me to it. (And I could point to others besides you.)

But yeah, I have a feeling she's not interested in any opinions that don't match her own. Not saying anyone has to agree, but at least have enough respect to pay attention.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

But yeah, I have a feeling she's not interested in any opinions that don't match her own.

Don't most of us operate that way?

Not saying anyone has to agree, but at least have enough respect to pay attention.

As I've said on this topic before - one can be as gay as one wants to be. Live and let live. I just don't accept the argument that gay rights are the same / similar to civil rights with respect to racial equality.

If gay people want to support gay marriage - fine. Just because they support it does not mean I have to agree with it. Just don't usurp what Blacks have had to deal with as an equal comparison to gay rights. To me the two just don't carry the same weight.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

But something tells me you're not really checking for the black gay opinion in the first place.

No, not really.

I just find it very insensitive that the Black experience in America can get so trivialized.

So, Sen, let me ask you - would you as a Black gay man find the issue of gay marriage more compelling if it is compared to the Holocaust that Jews experienced?

Gays, just as the Jews, were singled out for being 'different'.

Gays, just as Jews, were / have been persecuted for having practices and beliefs that were / are not accepted by the 'norm'.

Gays, just as the Jews, had property vandalized because they are not part of the 'majority'.

Gays, just as the Jews, are subject to ridicule just for being who they are.

So do you think the gay marriage argument would have more support if we compared it to the Jewish experience seeing as that both groups have been persecuted in the same way?

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I just find it very insensitive that the Black experience in America can get so trivialized.

It's even more telling that you think I was "trivializing" the black experience by utilizing the historical and moral lessons that are directly drawn from the mistreatment of blacks in the United States to further human rights.

It's not "trivializing" the black experience - it's hoping that we never repeat the same horrific mistakes ever again. But hey - take it how you will.

Also, that's fine if you feel homosexuality is a choice, or that it's immoral. However, even if you want to dodge the church/state separation issue (I presume you do), I'm sure you'll agree that even immoral people (who do not break a law) deserve proper and equal treatment under the law.

Because of the positive connotation (and stigma) associated with the term "marriage," we walk a difficult path when we even begin to introduce terms such as "civil union" - it's eerily similar to how "separate-but-equal" was really anything but, even when we acknowledge the scale is dissimilar. We should be more enlightened than to simply pretend terms or institutions have no meaning or can be used interchangeably - they can't.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

It's even more telling that you think I was "trivializing" the black experience by utilizing the historical and moral lessons that are directly drawn from the mistreatment of blacks in the United States to further human rights.

So point out to me where gays have experienced the exact same mistreatment as Blacks? As I asked earlier, were there or are there separate water fountains for gays?

It's not "trivializing" the black experience - it's hoping that we never repeat the same horrific mistakes ever again. But hey - take it how you will.

It is trivializing the Black experience. Have gays in this country been forced into slave labor? Were gay families broken up and sold as property? Have gays been denied the right to vote soley because they were gay?

Also, that's fine if you feel homosexuality is a choice, or that it's immoral. However, even if you want to dodge the church/state separation issue (I presume you do), I'm sure you'll agree that even immoral people (who do not break a law) deserve proper and equal treatment under the law.

I feel that homosexuality is a choice because it has not been proven otherwise, i.e. a gay gene.

I dodge the church/state issue because for me it is an impass. I don't think one side will ever convince the other, so why discuss it.

Again, gay people have not been mistreated under the law. Gay people don't get longer jail time or have to pay higher taxes just because they are gay.

Because of the positive connotation (and stigma) associated with the term "marriage," we walk a difficult path when we even begin to introduce terms such as "civil union" - it's eerily similar to how "separate-but-equal" was really anything but, even when we acknowledge the scale is dissimilar. We should be more enlightened than to simply pretend terms or institutions have no meaning or can be used interchangeably - they can't.

I agree with this and I bolded the part of the point I'm trying to make.

If you want to make the argument for gay marriage do so - just find a different basis than 'separate but equal'. Separate but equal sought to restore and give rights to Blacks where those rights were taken away. Nothing has been taken away from gays.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

No, not really.

I just find it very insensitive that the Black experience in America can get so trivialized.

So, Sen, let me ask you - would you as a Black gay man find the issue of gay marriage more compelling if it is compared to the Holocaust that Jews experienced?

It's sad that you feel that by viewing the issue of gay marriage as a civil rights issue that it somehow trivializes the black experience. MY black experience is enhanced by being able to acknowledge that it's all part of the same movement.

I don't need to find the issue of gay marriage any more compelling for me than it already is -- it's my life.

I feel very strongly about this issue, enough to end friendships with people just like you who do not believe in my equality. I WILL NOT respect any person, religion, or opinion that does not stand with me for equal rights.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

It's sad that you feel that by viewing the issue of gay marriage as a civil rights issue that it somehow trivializes the black experience. MY black experience is enhanced by being able to acknowledge that it's all part of the same movement.

My point is why do gays always have to point to the Black experience as a justification to gain their rights - what ever they may be. Why can't gay people just say that many groups have been persecuted for one reason or another based on some aspect of their being, so why should they (gays) be persucuted for how they are.

I don't need to find the issue of gay marriage any more compelling for me than it already is -- it's my life.

For you personally, I'm sure that is true. I think if more people had a more visceral feeling towards the Black experience then they would be a bit more sensitive (understanding?) to wanting to compare their experience to ours.

I have parents and family members as I am sure you do, who lived through the experience of the civil rights movement. Who did truly live a 'separate but equal' life under segregation. When my parents and older family members relate their experiences to me I just don't see the comparison to gay rights.

I feel very strongly about this issue, enough to end friendships with people just like you who do not believe in my equality. I WILL NOT respect any person, religion, or opinion that does not stand with me for equal rights.

Wow, you're a real love me or leave kind of person, eh?

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

So are there gay water fountains and straight water fountains?

Separate but equal was created based on racial identity - something for which no one can choose.

I just don't agree with the idea that gays have 'separate but equal' issues when it comes to marriage. Besides, the only people who I've seen tried to push the separate but equal argument where the issue of gay marriage is "equal to" racial inequality are white gay people.

I've never been able to choose who I'm attracted to. I'm either attracted to a man or I'm not. I've never been able to make that chemistry happen if it isn't there and I've not been able to turn off the attraction if it is. While in divorce court, when my first husband walked into the court room, I still felt that intense physical attraction even though he was abusive jerk and I had grown to hate him. Therefore, I don't believe that gay people have that ability either. I cannot believe that someone would choose a lifestyle that has such a stigma and puts such limitations on their lives. In fact, most gay people I know tried very hard to meet and fall in love with members of the opposite sex before realizing that it wasn't going to happen and accepting that they were in fact gay.

I'm a white heterosexual who agrees with the "separate but equal" argument. I don't understand why anybody would deny someone the opportunity to commit to their life soul mate in a public, spiritual and legal way.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I cannot believe that someone would choose a lifestyle that has such a stigma and puts such limitations on their lives. In fact, most gay people I know tried very hard to meet and fall in love with members of the opposite sex before realizing that it wasn't going to happen and accepting that they were in fact gay.

Becuase there are people who feel very strongly that homosexuality is a choice. Is there a gay gene that some people are born with? I don't know.

I don't understand why anybody would deny someone the opportunity to commit to their life soul mate in a public, spiritual and legal way.

Because some people feel very strongly that homosexuality is immoral.

I feel that it is immoral, but I'm not going to try and stop someone from being gay. That is not for me to do. But, if given the opportunity to express my opinion on the matter of gay marriage by a vote, then I would not support gay marriage.