government mandated slavery

[AGDee]

For the last 8 years, we've had a President who never changed his mind on anything, even if new information demonstrated that he was 100% totally and completely wrong. I think it's a sign of intelligence to make a plan/goal and to alter that plan/goal as you receive new information that may pertain to it. However, the minute someone does that, or compromises so that at least part of their plan can move forward, they are called a flip-flopper. So, you can have stubborn and bull-headed in the face of facts or you can have someone who flip flops. I actually gained some respect for GW Bush this last week when I read an article where he said he regrets that Mission Accomplished speech. It's the first time I've ever seen any semblance of "I made a mistake" from him.

[Tinia2]

Originally Posted by AGDee

For the last 8 years, we've had a President who never changed his mind on anything, even if new information demonstrated that he was 100% totally and completely wrong. I think it's a sign of intelligence to make a plan/goal and to alter that plan/goal as you receive new information that may pertain to it. However, the minute someone does that, or compromises so that at least part of their plan can move forward, they are called a flip-flopper. So, you can have stubborn and bull-headed in the face of facts or you can have someone who flip flops. I actually gained some respect for GW Bush this last week when I read an article where he said he regrets that Mission Accomplished speech. It's the first time I've ever seen any semblance of "I made a mistake" from him.

^^^^Very well said AGDee. I agree with you.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by AGDee

For the last 8 years, we've had a President who never changed his mind on anything, even if new information demonstrated that he was 100% totally and completely wrong. I think it's a sign of intelligence to make a plan/goal and to alter that plan/goal as you receive new information that may pertain to it. However, the minute someone does that, or compromises so that at least part of their plan can move forward, they are called a flip-flopper. So, you can have stubborn and bull-headed in the face of facts or you can have someone who flip flops. I actually gained some respect for GW Bush this last week when I read an article where he said he regrets that Mission Accomplished speech. It's the first time I've ever seen any semblance of "I made a mistake" from him.

Yeah, this is fair and I mostly agree, but you're kind of presenting a false dilemma when you conflate "adjusting to new information" and "admitting mistakes" - in specific, there are definite and decided advantages to the President (nearly) never admitting a "mistake" in those precise terms while in office, while there are few tangible benefits to a mea culpa speech while in office.

Rigidity is the sign of a small mind, but the sign of flexibility (especially for the President) is certainly not apology. It's neither necessary nor sufficient. In that way, it's kind of a crappy standard to hold Bush to - I wouldn't expect Obama to go "whoops, some of my programs suck and/or are infeasible, time to back off those campaign promises - sorry!"

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by AGDee

For the last 8 years, we've had a President who never changed his mind on anything, even if new information demonstrated that he was 100% totally and completely wrong. I think it's a sign of intelligence to make a plan/goal and to alter that plan/goal as you receive new information that may pertain to it. However, the minute someone does that, or compromises so that at least part of their plan can move forward, they are called a flip-flopper. So, you can have stubborn and bull-headed in the face of facts or you can have someone who flip flops. I actually gained some respect for GW Bush this last week when I read an article where he said he regrets that Mission Accomplished speech. It's the first time I've ever seen any semblance of "I made a mistake" from him.

What new information do you think Obama has gotten that changed his mind?

I think it's hard to make the case that these changes are really based on information that he didn't know before. It just sounded better to express it one way for the campaign, but it's now unrealistic to deliver on. It happens every campaign, so I'm not trying to single Obama out. But I don't think we should praise it as a virtue in his case either.

[LightBulb]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

What new information do you think Obama has gotten that changed his mind?

I think it's hard to make the case that these changes are really based on information that he didn't know before. It just sounded better to express it one way for the campaign, but it's now unrealistic to deliver on. It happens every campaign, so I'm not trying to single Obama out. But I don't think we should praise it as a virtue in his case either.

I'm an Obama supporter, and I agree.

[I.A.S.K.]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

What new information do you think Obama has gotten that changed his mind?

I think it's hard to make the case that these changes are really based on information that he didn't know before. It just sounded better to express it one way for the campaign, but it's now unrealistic to deliver on. It happens every campaign, so I'm not trying to single Obama out. But I don't think we should praise it as a virtue in his case either.

Economic crisis? For most of the campaign we weren't in an "economic crisis". That could drastically change any person's mind. The only way it's not a flip-flop is if there is new information. If there is no new information then its just a flip-flop, but if there is new information it is a valid adjustment/ change in position.

[AGDee]

Since the minute he was elected, Obama has been privvy to a lot more information than he had before. The transition team began working almost immediately. I'd feel quite certain that he has been given all kinds of new info at this stage of the game.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Since the minute he was elected, Obama has been privvy to a lot more information than he had before. The transition team began working almost immediately. I'd feel quite certain that he has been given all kinds of new info at this stage of the game.

Sure, but I don't think it was new information about community service and I think if the change was simply a reaction to the economic downturn, it could have been changed before the election.

I personally wouldn't characterize this change as a flip flop because I think it makes sense to reserve that distinction for stands that actually reverse themselves. (First you say you'll use public financing, but then when you see how much money you can raise, you decide not to go with public financing = flip flop. It was a one or the other choice and you changed your position.)

Here Obama has simply modified from one form of supporting community service to another. He backed off making it a requirement while still retaining it as a goal. If he ends up vetoing community service legislation, then he's flip flopped, IMO.