government mandated slavery

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by StargazerLily

I'm looking at the middle/high school kids. What do they get for doing their 50 hours of service?

Look, I'm going to ignore the rest because I'm incredibly hung over and you don't deserve the kind of irate rant that would follow, but seriously, take another second and read your note above again.

Seriously - you have a problem with COMMUNITY SERVICE? Even if compulsory, the kids get to pick what they do - so it's not like they're forced to help X, Y or Z (where X/Y/Z are communities you find distasteful), they're allowed to clean dishes at the country club if they want. This isn't a bad thing, unless you're absolutely and irrevocably irrational.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Look, I'm going to ignore the rest because I'm incredibly hung over and you don't deserve the kind of irate rant that would follow, but seriously, take another second and read your note above again.

Seriously - you have a problem with COMMUNITY SERVICE? Even if compulsory, the kids get to pick what they do - so it's not like they're forced to help X, Y or Z (where X/Y/Z are communities you find distasteful), they're allowed to clean dishes at the country club if they want. This isn't a bad thing, unless you're absolutely and irrevocably irrational.

I think one could have a rational problem with any new federal program without a clearly defined purpose. Your point about washing dishes at the country club kind of points out how useless this could turn out to be. It might actually be destructive, displacing lower wage employees.

I don't have a problem with tying currently existing federal assistance for higher education to community service in areas of specific need. As far as middle school and high school, if a local board wanted to set it up, okay. Or if it's offered as sort of the old Presidential Physical Fitness Awards program in the area of community service, it's hard to see it doing any real harm or having any really big costs.

But it's not irrational to question exactly what and how.

[AGDee]

I've been supportive of something like this since I first learned of Israel's program. In that type of system, everybody does 2 years of something, whether military or community service. If someone is not eligible for the military due to health reasons, they can do community service. The biggest problem is funding it, as is the case with everything that sounds like a good idea. I think our society is the most selfish that it's ever been. In the words of JFK.. "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

Most of the schools around here require community service hours to graduate. I don't see these types of programs taking away jobs from anybody.

I am floored by the number of people who keep saying "Oh great, now my taxes are going to be raised." None of the people I've heard say that make anywhere near $250K a year. As my ex-husband was grumbling, I looked at him and said "If you're making over $250K, then you're not paying me enough child support" and he got this look on his face and said "Yeah, I guess I'll worry about when I make that much, which is never.." LOL

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I've been supportive of something like this since I first learned of Israel's program. In that type of system, everybody does 2 years of something, whether military or community service. If someone is not eligible for the military due to health reasons, they can do community service. The biggest problem is funding it, as is the case with everything that sounds like a good idea. I think our society is the most selfish that it's ever been. In the words of JFK.. "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

Most of the schools around here require community service hours to graduate. I don't see these types of programs taking away jobs from anybody.

I am floored by the number of people who keep saying "Oh great, now my taxes are going to be raised." None of the people I've heard say that make anywhere near $250K a year. As my ex-husband was grumbling, I looked at him and said "If you're making over $250K, then you're not paying me enough child support" and he got this look on his face and said "Yeah, I guess I'll worry about when I make that much, which is never.." LOL

I'm just guessing, but I think you mean high schools requiring community service and I suspect that most of it gets done with organizations that have always done community service, like the Boy Scouts, Girls Scouts, Beta Club, church groups, etc. It'd be interesting to know how many more kids do it than did before the schools required it and how well the community is served.

And I also suspect that what is currently required is a relatively small number of hours done by a relatively small numbers of schools, compared to the number of schools you would have involved if you had a universal program. It could be incredible in terms of the benefits to society or could be a huge resource suck, depending on the requirements for administration and documentation of the program.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with community service. There could in practice be a lot wrong in how this gets done. Since the language has now shifted to merely setting a goal of the relatively small number of hours for a year, I'm not thinking it's going to amount to much but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

(The job loss thing was just in response to the dish washing example. I honestly expect the increase in community service to be so small scale that it wouldn't really matter in the labor force. What I see with kids at my high school is that they do things they'd do anyway, but they just track the hours.)

I'm not sure that you can compare the Israeli program to what you could expect to see in the US, for a lot of reasons.

[AGDee]

For high school students, all you would really need a log sheet that they turn in to their counselor with their graduation portfolio. As they do service, they get someone to sign off. It doesn't have to be a huge deal. It could be anything from shoveling snow for an elderly neighbor, volunteering at a local pet shelter, helping at the church when it's their Christnet week, etc. And yes, my kids, through Scouts, do far more than 40 or 50 hours of service a year. I have demonstrated an importance for community service to them and they are always eager to do service. I think they get a lot of self esteem from it in addition to learning more about people less fortunate than they are. There are also community service clubs in their high school. I believe the one my daughter joined is called Interact. I was a candy striper through high school because, at the time, I thought I wanted to be a doctor and thought it would be good for med school apps. While volunteering in the PT department, I got exposed to Occupational Therapy and discovered that OT was a great combination of all the things I wanted to do at some point (teaching, medical field and psychiatry/psychology). The things one learns about themselves while helping others are invaluable.

The type of program Israel has is what I would like to see here, but as I said, the funding would be impossible. There is an Americorps (City Year Detroit) that works out of my building and I think what they do is great. They don't work for free, although the stipend they get doesn't come close to military pay either. I see a lot of college students wandering aimlessly through their first two years of college trying to figure out what to major in, etc. who end up taking 6 years to graduate because they change their major so many times. Having a couple years to do some service and find out more about who you really are and where your true interests and skills lie wouldn't be a bad thing for those kids either.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by AGDee

For high school students, all you would really need a log sheet that they turn in to their counselor with their graduation portfolio. As they do service, they get someone to sign off. It doesn't have to be a huge deal. It could be anything from shoveling snow for an elderly neighbor, volunteering at a local pet shelter, helping at the church when it's their Christnet week, etc. And yes, my kids, through Scouts, do far more than 40 or 50 hours of service a year. I have demonstrated an importance for community service to them and they are always eager to do service. I think they get a lot of self esteem from it in addition to learning more about people less fortunate than they are. There are also community service clubs in their high school. I believe the one my daughter joined is called Interact. I was a candy striper through high school because, at the time, I thought I wanted to be a doctor and thought it would be good for med school apps. While volunteering in the PT department, I got exposed to Occupational Therapy and discovered that OT was a great combination of all the things I wanted to do at some point (teaching, medical field and psychiatry/psychology). The things one learns about themselves while helping others are invaluable.

The type of program Israel has is what I would like to see here, but as I said, the funding would be impossible. There is an Americorps (City Year Detroit) that works out of my building and I think what they do is great. They don't work for free, although the stipend they get doesn't come close to military pay either. I see a lot of college students wandering aimlessly through their first two years of college trying to figure out what to major in, etc. who end up taking 6 years to graduate because they change their major so many times. Having a couple years to do some service and find out more about who you really are and where your true interests and skills lie wouldn't be a bad thing for those kids either.

If all the high school kids need is to turn in a log sheet, I don't think you will see any appreciable benefit to the community. The kids will track more hours, but I don't hold out much hope that they will actually do more hours.

Sure, I think every high school kid could probably find ways to do 50 authentic hours of service a year. A big group though won't even attempt it, if it isn't mandatory. And another appreciable group will just do a better job tracking every thing they could possible "count," without actually making much of sincere effort to serve. So you're left with the kids who have already been doing service in their families, Scouts, clubs, etc.

A big optional public service initiative probably not going to hurt anything. And it might actually make kids more aware of opportunities that they do have, but I think it can either be a "goal" with little reward or consequence to the kid or to society or it can be a large scale program that's either required or rewarded in a way that makes it more likely that people will participate but will also drive up the cost of the program. Neither one is something I feel like we need federal intervention to do.

As you noted, we've got programs right now that would meet some of the needs and benefits if kids would elect to participate.

[epchick]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

If all the high school kids need is to turn in a log sheet, I don't think you will see any appreciable benefit to the community. The kids will track more hours, but I don't hold out much hope that they will actually do more hours.

How do you figure that? When I was in high school, the only groups that did community service were the National Honor Societies (NHS, Spanish NHS, French NHS, etc). In all those groups we had log sheets, where you wrote down what you did, the hours you were there, and then you got the person in charge of the community service to sign off (plus their telephone number to be reached at).

I remember thinking that 50-100 hours of community service was a lot for a whole year until I realized what was considered "community service." I was in a dance group at the time (ballet folklorico) and any performance we had counted as community service. We used to have at least 3-5 performances a month. So in the 9 month span, I racked up anywhere between 20 to 50 hours just in dancing. Not to mention we got hours for making holiday/birthday baskets for custodians, or volunteering as candy strippers.

I remember I always had fun volunteering at an elementary school's Halloween carnival. Shoot playing games w/ kids, eating candy, dressing up, scaring kids, etc was the best way to spend 5 hours.

I do think that it will be hard to get people to do the community service, especially in areas (like mine) where none are required. But to say that it's "forced labor" or whatever is a little far fetched.

ETA: i think that there are many good things in mandating community service, but at the same time I think people will lose the "thrill" of voluntarily volunteering. People will see community service as just something they HAVE to do instead of something they WANT to do. I've always found it impressive when someone in MS/HS says they volunteer at so-and-so, I wouldn't feel the same way if it was mandated.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I think one could have a rational problem with any new federal program without a clearly defined purpose. Your point about washing dishes at the country club kind of points out how useless this could turn out to be. It might actually be destructive, displacing lower wage employees.

I don't have a problem with tying currently existing federal assistance for higher education to community service in areas of specific need. As far as middle school and high school, if a local board wanted to set it up, okay. Or if it's offered as sort of the old Presidential Physical Fitness Awards program in the area of community service, it's hard to see it doing any real harm or having any really big costs.

But it's not irrational to question exactly what and how.

If this is what were happening, I wouldn't have posted.

Instead, the OP comparing this to "slavery" (in any form) shows an irrational belief in what is really being proposed - even connecting this to the draft is laughable. You really think the Democrats are the ones looking to institute a draft? Come on. It's fear-mongering and, to a certain extent, race-baiting.

I'm as skeptical as any, in the traditional mold of the Skeptics - questioning is fine, this is not. To put it another way, I'm not enslaved by the "limited" selection at a grocery store if I'm hungry, and to claim otherwise is disingenuous at best.