Ban on Gays adopting

[a.e.B.O.T.]

Arkansas voted in favor of banning gays from adopting... WTF? I can't believe that was even on the ballot, let alone won? Does anyone else think this is crazy?

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by a.e.B.O.T.

Arkansas voted in favor of banning gays from adopting... WTF? I can't believe that was even on the ballot, let alone won? Does anyone else think this is crazy?

It's crazy, but not surprising, if that makes sense.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

It's crazy, but not surprising, if that makes sense.

100%.

[the rocketeer]

FWIW, it bans all "sexual partners" from adopting, including hetero couples, so I guess you can only adopt if you're single or married now.

[PrettyBoy]

Originally Posted by a.e.B.O.T.

Does anyone else think this is crazy?

I don't

[sugar and spice]

Well, obviously these kids are better off with no parents than with gay ones!

It's especially stupid considering that this measure can't and won't stop gay parents from adopting. They'll just have half the couple adopt the child as a "single" parent and then raise it together.

[AKA_Monet]

Fear of the gay planet...

So who is going to take care of the all the children who do not get adopted by anyone in Arkansas?

That is depressing...

Refusal to move beyond selfishness...

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by sugar and spice

Well, obviously these kids are better off with no parents than with gay ones!

It's especially stupid considering that this measure can't and won't stop gay parents from adopting. They'll just have half the couple adopt the child as a "single" parent and then raise it together.

Right, but what it WILL do is ban second-parent adoption. So the second parent will not be legally able to be a parent and thus will have no legal rights regarding the child. For example, if the custodial parent passes away, then this sets up a legal battle wherein some homophobic grandparents (God forbid) fight the second parent for the child, since the second parent is not legally a "parent."

So it sucks. A lot.

I always get amused, though, by people who seemingly fail to realize that many gay people have BIOLOGICAL children. Lesbians can get pregnant! Gay men can have children from previous hetero relationships! Somehow people think that if they ban gay adoptions that magically gay people will have no access to children!

[sugar and spice]

Well, in most cases, if the parent that passed on specified in their will that the child was to be raised by the other partner after their death, the court would grant that. The grandparents could fight it, but they'd be unlikely to win unless the living partner was deemed somehow unfit.

A more unfortunate case would be if the child was extremely ill--whichever parent hadn't adopted him would probably have no legal rights to visit him in the hospital, for example. Or if a couple that was trying to adopt did not make a lot of money, they might not be eligible to adopt. (They might have a combined income that was enough to hit the minimum financial bar, for example, but would not meet it individually.) Or, of course, if they have enough money (and generally, if you're looking into adoption, you do) they can always go to another state that does allow gay adoption, which is what gay couples have been doing for years. Even some couples whose states allow a single gay parent to adopt, or second-parent adoption, will go out of their way to travel to a state where joint adoption is allowed, like Oregon (a la Dan Savage in The Kid) or Vermont.

So basically, while I agree with you that it sucks, I don't think it's a huge setback in the gay rights movement. Florida's LGBT adoption laws are far worse (they don't even allow a single LGBT parent to adopt). It's more of an empty gesture designed to intimidate than it will be a serious deterrent to gays who really want to adopt . . . as are all these silly no-gay-marriage propositions popping up over the last three major elections -- they're last ditch efforts by conservatives who know they'll be overturned in the next 15 years because every generation coming up is increasingly more supportive of gay marriage (young Americans now are something like 60%+ in favor of it) and their base who are vehemently against it are all 50+. Their days where they will have the support to pass measures like this are numbered, so they're trying to get it on the books while they still can. While the state of LGBT rights looks pretty abysmal right now, it's the calm before the storm.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by sugar and spice

Well, in most cases, if the parent that passed on specified in their will that the child was to be raised by the other partner after their death, the court would grant that. The grandparents could fight it, but they'd be unlikely to win unless the living partner was deemed somehow unfit.

A more unfortunate case would be if the child was extremely ill--whichever parent hadn't adopted him would probably have no legal rights to visit him in the hospital, for example. Or if a couple that was trying to adopt did not make a lot of money, they might not be eligible to adopt. (They might have a combined income that was enough to hit the minimum financial bar, for example, but would not meet it individually.) Or, of course, if they have enough money (and generally, if you're looking into adoption, you do) they can always go to another state that does allow gay adoption, which is what gay couples have been doing for years. Even some couples whose states allow a single gay parent to adopt, or second-parent adoption, will go out of their way to travel to a state where joint adoption is allowed, like Oregon (a la Dan Savage in The Kid) or Vermont.

So basically, while I agree with you that it sucks, I don't think it's a huge setback in the gay rights movement. Florida's LGBT adoption laws are far worse (they don't even allow a single LGBT parent to adopt). It's more of an empty gesture designed to intimidate than it will be a serious deterrent to gays who really want to adopt . . . as are all these silly no-gay-marriage propositions popping up over the last three major elections -- they're last ditch efforts by conservatives who know they'll be overturned in the next 15 years because every generation coming up is increasingly more supportive of gay marriage (young Americans now are something like 60%+ in favor of it) and their base who are vehemently against it are all 50+. Their days where they will have the support to pass measures like this are numbered, so they're trying to get it on the books while they still can. While the state of LGBT rights looks pretty abysmal right now, it's the calm before the storm.

Eh, I think it still sucks more than you're giving it credit for. For example there are a lot of non-wealthy gays and lesbians out there. A lot of those people haven't actually adopted flat out. Their children are biological - from previous marriages or otherwise. I don't know all the stats, but I'm thinking that's just as common as adoption if not more. In those cases, whichever parent is not the biological parent gets screwed.

It's also perpetuating class-based oppression for working class gays and lesbians. That's a very overlooked population group. It's just like if a state bans abortion, the rich people of that state will still have access to abortion - they'll go out of state. It's the poor people who get screwed.

Again, yes, those who can afford adoption can probably afford legal protections for themselves. You can write up a contract to imitate marriage and all kinds of other rights. But you have to have the money. And there are a lot of gay couples whose children are not adopted in the way people imagine. Many are also foster parents, which adds even more complexity to the situation.

I think it's really unwise to downplay the suck of this law... you know? I know people who have been major activists for second-parent adoption in states - even in states where it's not banned, per se, it can still be extremely difficult and expensive - and I know a fair bit about the consequences for families if second-parent adoption is no longer an option (whether the kids were adopted by one parent originally or are biologically one parent's).

Agreed, though, that most of this will eventually be repealed.

[PhoenixAzul]

Pardon my legal ignorance here, but what about guardianship? Let's say, Partner A has a child from a previous hetero relationship, and has sole custody. He is now with Partner B. Would Partner B be allowed to be appointed as a Legal Guardian for the child?

[ForeverRoses]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAzul

Pardon my legal ignorance here, but what about guardianship? Let's say, Partner A has a child from a previous hetero relationship, and has sole custody. He is now with Partner B. Would Partner B be allowed to be appointed as a Legal Guardian for the child?

Also, legal guardianship does not necessarily give certain rights to the child- such as access to health insurance. So if partner A wants to stay home and raise the child, partner B cannot add the child to their work health insurance plan (unless the place of employment has domestic partnership health insurance). Normally, only adopted, bilogical, and those children under a court order can be added to company health insurance.

[BabyPiNK_FL]

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but does anyone know how many gay adoptions there were in Arkansas?

[KSUViolet06]

I fail to understand why people think that these children would be better off in the foster system than in a stable environment with two supportive parents.

I wonder how many kids the people who voted no on this are planning to adopt in the future?

[epchick]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

I fail to understand why people think that these children would be better off in the foster system than in a stable environment with two supportive parents.

Because people are ignorant enough to think that it's better for them to stay in a foster care than "become gay."

I always thought that the people I knew (or that my family knew) were smart, open-minded people. But i've heard quite a few who are against gays adopting because it will turn the child gay. I've even heard (at least 1 person) say that gays want to adopt so that later on they could molest the child

The world we live in is really sad at times.

Originally Posted by BabyPiNK_FL

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but does anyone know how many gay adoptions there were in Arkansas?

I don't know if there would be statistics on how many gay adoptions there are. Usually, partner A will enter the adoption as a "single parent" and gain the child that way, and then partner B will come in later on (after the adoption is finalized) and adopt the child as their own as well. But then I don't know if that is how it would work in Arkansas.

I do know a couple who did it that way because they were turn down the first time they tried to adopt as a gay couple. They said it was easier to pretend they were single than to tell the truth that they were gay.