Second Presidential Debate

[Nanners52674]

Originally Posted by WarEagle07

I am wondering the exact same thing!! My husband and I are part of the demographic considered wealthy by Obama's standards but I can tell you that we are a far cry from wealthy. We live in that nasty income bracket where we get hit with the AMT every year so we can't maximize deductions, we don't qualify for financial aid so we pay out of pocket for kids colleges, we don't qualify for stimulus help, and we probably won't qualify for any of the amazing tax credits promised by either candidate. So once we pay our 'fair share' of taxes, pay tuition, pay medical bills, and dental etc there isn't a ton left over for us to be in any way considered wealthy. Yeah, we worked so hard and payed our way through college and worked long hours to get where we are at. It's like being penalized for achieving, in other words why is my hard work not valued as much as a middle class person's hard work by the government? Why is the upper-middle class now considered wealthy? If Obama wants to come see my 'truly wealthy' lifestyle, he can come cut coupons with me and I can drive him around in my car with 110,000 miles on and hoping that it will last another couple of years! On this point I believe that Obama is very much out of touch

Obama: "no family making less than $250,000 will see their taxes increase." (From his website)

Based on the above policy of Obama's and your own declaration of being wealthy according to Obama, (correct me if im wrong) it would mean that you and your husband make MORE THAN $250,000 yearly.

If a family were to make JUST $250,000 and have their taxes raised (throwing out a hypothetical percentage) that meant 20% (or $50,000) of their yearly income would be given to the government. It would still leave that family with $200,000 a year to live on. That can be broken down to roughly $16,600 a month or $33,000 per member (family of 6) yearly.

Given those rough numbers I have trouble understanding how a family that makes a MINIMUM of $250,000 a year (before taxes) would have trouble living comfortably????

If anyone can explain to how one would struggle to live a comfortable life on a $16,000 a month income, I would greatly appreciate the explanation.

[AGDee]

^^^^^ Thanks for that. I think I live comfortably. I have a house (not huge, but it's in a nice neighborhood), I have no trouble putting food on the table. We have more TVs and computers than people living here. I have a (modest) car and will be buying another in a year so that my daughter can use my current car when she gets her license. I can't spend indiscriminately, but we aren't lacking for needs and we manage a vacation every year. I have to plan out when I'm going to make major purchases (furniture, home remodels) and sometimes I have to pay the Girl Scout dues out of the next paycheck because the current one is already spoken for. However, we are far more comfortable than my family was when I was a kid. We live on a budget, but that budget allows for cell phones for both kids and myself with unlimited texting and internet access. It allows for digital cable with almost all the premium channels. That's pretty comfortable. I don't buy designer stuff. My car (new) was $13K, my next one will be $20K, not $40K or $50K, but we're comfortable. I do all this on around 1/4th of the $250,000 salary. We can't buy everything we want the minute we want it, but we're not hurting either. I'm even putting money into a money market every month. If a person can get themselves debt free, other than a mortgage, it's very possible to live comfortably on much much less than $250K. It's why I cringe when co-workers of mine, who make twice as much as I do and who have a husband who makes more than them, complain about not having any money. I want to hit them over the head! I am not using credit cards for anything anymore, unless there is an emergency that costs more than I have in the emergency fund. If I don't have cash, we don't buy it. Few things can't wait two more weeks til the next paycheck. It's really liberating! I think we, as a society, have become far too materialistic.. never happy with what we have, always wanting more.

[RaggedyAnn]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

Obama: "no family making less than $250,000 will see their taxes increase." (From his website)

Based on the above policy of Obama's and your own declaration of being wealthy according to Obama, (correct me if im wrong) it would mean that you and your husband make MORE THAN $250,000 yearly.

If a family were to make JUST $250,000 and have their taxes raised (throwing out a hypothetical percentage) that meant 20% (or $50,000) of their yearly income would be given to the government. It would still leave that family with $200,000 a year to live on. That can be broken down to roughly $16,600 a month or $33,000 per member (family of 6) yearly.

Given those rough numbers I have trouble understanding how a family that makes a MINIMUM of $250,000 a year (before taxes) would have trouble living comfortably????

If anyone can explain to how one would struggle to live a comfortable life on a $16,000 a month income, I would greatly appreciate the explanation.

This is really a deep question with a lot of things to consider. $16,000 a month would go a lot further say in West Virginia than in New Jersey or New York. You really can't make it a blanket statement. You have to look at cost of living in each area. We're not comparing apples and apples.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by RaggedyAnn

This is really a deep question with a lot of things to consider. $16,000 a month would go a lot further say in West Virginia than in New Jersey or New York. You really can't make it a blanket statement. You have to look at cost of living in each area. We're not comparing apples and apples.

I have a coworker than lives on $3500 (gross) per month in Rockland County, NY (where the median cost of a house is $499,000). My family doesn't have much more than that. I don't buy it.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

If a family were to make JUST $250,000 and have their taxes raised (throwing out a hypothetical percentage) that meant 20% (or $50,000) of their yearly income would be given to the government. It would still leave that family with $200,000 a year to live on. That can be broken down to roughly $16,600 a month or $33,000 per member (family of 6) yearly.

No, not really. I see far more than 20% of my paycheck deducted each month, and I don't make 250K. If you do make that much, it's more like 33%...so, that ends up being about $13K a month. For 6 people (4 kids!), that's not that much. Also, don't forget:

-insurance premiums/deductions
-pre-tax deductions for retirement
-state/local taxes
-Social Security
-any other pre-tax deductions (for example, I get one for public transportation)

Also, you have to factor in regional costs of living. What's "comfortable" in Michigan is "middle class" in NYC/SF, and "honking wealthy" in Mississippi.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

First, NEVER said it was the only reason, but one of the many.

I was just respondong to what you reported your dentist said:

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

Just got back from the dentist, who have me some hope. . . . He says that the only reason people are picking BO is he's the 'popular' guy. Makes sense, 'cause Oprah told me so'.

Yes, you've made clear that people have different reasons for supporting candidates, but of all the examples you have given of why someone might support Obama, I haven't seen any acknowledgement that some people might have good reasons for doing so -- just examples of silly reasons.

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

On a side note, why is just anybody and their dog allowed to vote? What is up with this 'register the day before, and go vote' crap? I'll check to see if there is another thread.

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

Wow.

I agree. Isn't protecting our democracy, including our right to vote, part of what McCain served in the military to protect?

Maybe we should go back to the days when only white male landowners were allowed to vote.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Maybe we should go back to the days when only white male landowners were allowed to vote.

There are members of my family who are praying for the day.

ETA: All of the men I'm talking about are Republicans.

[ajuhdg]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I was just respondong to what you reported your dentist said:


Yes, you've made clear that people have different reasons for supporting candidates, but of all the examples you have given of why someone might support Obama, I haven't seen any acknowledgement that some people might have good reasons for doing so -- just examples of silly reasons.


I agree. Isn't protecting our democracy, including our right to vote, part of what McCain served in the military to protect?

Maybe we should go back to the days when only white male landowners were allowed to vote.

My mistake, just tried to get a few thoughts down without blabbing on and on. It was not the 'be all' reason...in his opinion. Just for a large segment of our uneducated (not talking book education, talking not looking at issues) will vote for whichever candidate their friends/coworkers/family tell them too. And, that is on both sides.

While I have given silly reasons on both sides. I have also reiterated reasons that I have heard from others. When I find a good reason for voting for BO, I'll be sure to let you know!

Kidding aside, the voting thing. You totally overexaggerated my statement, and basically put me barefoot and pregnant 80 years ago. My concern is with what was reported at length again yesterday about the group ACORN, and a guy who was able to register his CAT to vote. I'm talking more about accountability. Why is that some states don't mandate voters to prove their identity? I read an article about German tourists registering to vote! There was a problem in my husband's south Texas hometown with DEAD people registering to vote! We are all given the right to vote, I'm upset that the states don't take more measures to make sure that everyone gets their ONE vote, and that they are in fact, eligible to vote. So, basically "ANYONE (a dead person, a non-resident) and their dog (or cat) is being allowed to vote."

Regardless, the whole 'register the day before' concept still has me raising my eyebrow. People are given so many opportunities to register throughout the years, why does it have to be in the 11th hour? Although, they are saying the BO supporters are the ones pushing it, in all honesty, if it were the McCain camp doing it, I would still have a problem. I'm sure there are exceptions to the last minute (just turning 18, etc), but seriously, what could happen LITERALLY the day beofre that you're like "Wow, there's an election tomorrow, I should probably register."

Finally, again, I'm not in that 250k+ set, but why should they have to pay so much more JUST BECAUSE they make more? Just becuase you CAN live on 13k a month doesn't mean you should have to simply because you make more. I get the whole different tax brackets thing, but I just don't think the gap should be widened. If the government would spend more effectively, there wouldn't even be a need to raise the taxes.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

When I find a good reason for voting for BO, I'll be sure to let you know!

I'll be waiting.

Kidding aside, the voting thing. You totally overexaggerated my statement, and basically put me barefoot and pregnant 80 years ago. My concern is with what was reported at length again yesterday about the group ACORN, and a guy who was able to register his CAT to vote. I'm talking more about accountability.

I don't think we overexaggerated what you said. I think we took you to mean what you said, which came across as broader than the legitimate concerns you're raising now.

[ajuhdg]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I'll be waiting.

I don't think we overexaggerated what you said. I think we took you to mean what you said, which came across as broader than the legitimate concerns you're raising now.

It might be awhile...LOL!

Gotcha! It was kind of an afterthought, and I thought it was probaby discussed more in depth on another thread!

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

No, not really. I see far more than 20% of my paycheck deducted each month, and I don't make 250K. If you do make that much, it's more like 33%...so, that ends up being about $13K a month. For 6 people (4 kids!), that's not that much. Also, don't forget:

-insurance premiums/deductions
-pre-tax deductions for retirement
-state/local taxes
-Social Security
-any other pre-tax deductions (for example, I get one for public transportation)

Also, you have to factor in regional costs of living. What's "comfortable" in Michigan is "middle class" in NYC/SF, and "honking wealthy" in Mississippi.

You are correct that they have to subtract state/local taxes, Social Security and Medicare deductions, but we all pay those at the same rate and you don't pay Social Security or Medicare deductions after you've earned (I think this is the right number) $90,000K in one year.

When you figure your real income tax rate, you have to look at what you paid for the whole year per your tax return, after deducting your mortgage interest, charitable deductions, health care deductions, etc. Also, our tax rate is graduated. When people say "I'm in the 33% tax bracket", they aren't paying 33% on all their income. They're paying 10 % on the first 11,500, 15% on the next 20,000 or so, etc. They are only paying 33% on the amount above (again, shooting from memory here and could be wrong on exact figures) $125,000. So the average of all these different rates ends up being much lower 33%. I do understand that the cost of living in NYC and California is significantly higher than other places. Some of those costs do end up being deductions too, which should help balance it out (mortgage interest, for one)

But just about anywhere in this country, $250K is a pretty high income.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by AGDee

You are correct that they have to subtract state/local taxes, Social Security and Medicare deductions, but we all pay those at the same rate and you don't pay Social Security or Medicare deductions after you've earned (I think this is the right number) $90,000K in one year.

When you figure your real income tax rate, you have to look at what you paid for the whole year per your tax return, after deducting your mortgage interest, charitable deductions, health care deductions, etc. Also, our tax rate is graduated. When people say "I'm in the 33% tax bracket", they aren't paying 33% on all their income. They're paying 10 % on the first 11,500, 15% on the next 20,000 or so, etc. They are only paying 33% on the amount above (again, shooting from memory here and could be wrong on exact figures) $125,000. So the average of all these different rates ends up being much lower 33%. I do understand that the cost of living in NYC and California is significantly higher than other places. Some of those costs do end up being deductions too, which should help balance it out (mortgage interest, for one)

But just about anywhere in this country, $250K is a pretty high income.

My whole point was that money goes much faster than you'd think, especially once you start making a considerable amount and a lot goes away in taxes and other deductions.

I also know how tax brackets work. Since I'm actually AT work now, I shouldn't get into the whole thing, lest I want to keep this job. I was simply responding to an uninformed, simplistic view of income deductions.

[Nanners52674]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

No, not really. I see far more than 20% of my paycheck deducted each month, and I don't make 250K. If you do make that much, it's more like 33%...so, that ends up being about $13K a month. For 6 people (4 kids!), that's not that much. Also, don't forget:

-insurance premiums/deductions
-pre-tax deductions for retirement
-state/local taxes
-Social Security
-any other pre-tax deductions (for example, I get one for public transportation)

Also, you have to factor in regional costs of living. What's "comfortable" in Michigan is "middle class" in NYC/SF, and "honking wealthy" in Mississippi.

If you take your $13,000 a month figure thats still a yearly income of $156,000 and would allow each member of the 6 person family $26,000 to live off of. In my mind cost of living is factored in automatically I live in Ct where the median cost of a home is $300,000 not as high as say orange county, Ca but still it's not cheap to live here. Granted i don't have children and i live with a family member so rent and utilities are not something in my current budget. But I live on max $100 a week for groceries gas and general spending and most weeks i don't spend all of that.

Maybe im just lost because im only 21 and don't have a family or mortgage or those kinds of responsibilities but i just cant accept the fact that $13,000 is not enough money to live comfortably.

But then again maybe my definition of comfortable is different than yours and thats where the problem lies.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

If you take your $13,000 a month figure thats still a yearly income of $156,000 and would allow each member of the 6 person family $26,000 to live off of. In my mind cost of living is factored in automatically I live in Ct where the median cost of a home is $300,000 not as high as say orange county, Ca but still it's not cheap to live here. Granted i don't have children and i live with a family member so rent and utilities are not something in my current budget. But I live on max $100 a week for groceries gas and general spending and most weeks i don't spend all of that.

Maybe im just lost because im only 21 and don't have a family or mortgage or those kinds of responsibilities but i just cant accept the fact that $13,000 is not enough money to live comfortably.

But then again maybe my definition of comfortable is different than yours and thats where the problem lies.

I live in CT as well, and when you factor in mortgage, insurance, utility bills, taxes, healthcare (even with insurance, things like co-pays for visits and Rx), the odd home improvement (which, depending on the problem, could run you upwards of $10,000), heating for the winter (if needed, whether oil or wood), clothing, and a number of other factors, those numbers go up quite a bit.

[ajuhdg]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

Maybe im just lost because im only 21 and don't have a family or mortgage or those kinds of responsibilities but i just cant accept the fact that $13,000 is not enough money to live comfortably.

But then again maybe my definition of comfortable is different than yours and thats where the problem lies.

DEFINITELY definitions different. For example, median home cost here is half of that in CT. Not to mention, my family of 5 (MIL lives with us) would NEVER be able to get by $100/week. (I went to the store yesterday and bought FOUR loaves of bread and 2 gallons of milk, which MIGHT get us through the weekend.)

While comfortable is certainly a debatable term, again, just because you CAN live off of a certain amount why should you HAVE to? There are certain things that I have no problem buying generic of, while others might not even look at the price of things. I cut coupons, not because I have to, but because I like to save money where I can. My cousin and her husband make slightly less than we do, but she is STRICTLY organic in her food choices. Obviously that costs more, but that is her 'necessity'.

It seems to be the progression, people who make more money tend to spend more money. If I was making 250k+ per year, then I would have wider opportunities for say a vehicle purchase. I don't HAVE to have a $700/month car payment (believe my, I'm happy that I have a $250 one!), but if the money's there why not!? I don't think anyone's whining that there just barely scrimping by on $13k/month, but if you're really working for it why should you have to give it back. Not to mention, if you're making more, you're most likely putting most of it back into the economy anyway, right? That was just an side thought...

nuff rambling!