Not a Gaffe: A Fundamental Misunderstanding of Iraq - Page 2

preciousjeni · #16 07-29-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSig RC

I'm sorry - I was unclear when I used the term "pattern."

My point is that, regardless of whether there is a pattern, the more important issue is whether the average American perceives that there is a pattern.

Perhaps I'm not in tune with what the average American perceives, but it appears to me that the polls loosely follow what the media decides to publicize. I see a correlation, but I'm also reading, listening and watching. I tend to take political commentaries (along with the media's attention to the candidates) with a grain of salt. I think both candidates have said some idiotic things and I also know there are people out there who are drastically affected by the ebb and flow of information.

ASTalumna06 · #17 07-30-2008, 05:28 PM

I can agree that both sides have said some “idiotic” things, as preciousjeni put it. But at the same time, I can not vote for a freshman senator, who has virtually no experience in politics. What does anyone even know about him, besides the fact that he’s black and he wants the whole world to know it?

Obama is currently a U.S. senator who has yet to finish his first term in office. He served for seven years in the Illinois state Senate. He ran for a seat in the United States House of Representatives in 2000, and lost in the primary. He’s written a few books, and in 2006 he won a Grammy.

And… that’s it.

The last time the citizens of the U.S. elected a president directly from the Senate (which rarely happens) was in 1960 when John F. Kennedy took office. And he was a World War II veteran, a three-term U.S. Congressman, and was serving in his second term in the Senate when he was elected.

And you want to talk about screwing up while speaking? How about the speech Obama made just last week in Berlin where he apologized to the Germans? In my opinion, someone who is not nationally recognized as being a representative of this country (remember, he hasn’t been elected!) should not be permitted to make statements of this magnitude, especially when dealing with foreign countries.

And let’s not forget… he apologized to the Germans! Why?! Because we helped to stop the holocaust and defeat Nazism? Or is it because we reunified their country after creating conditions that lead to the fall of the Berlin Wall? No, maybe it’s because we ensured the freedom of West Germany during the Cold War and caused the economic collapse of the Soviet Union.

But hey, at least he was wearing an American flag pin.

preciousjeni · #18 07-30-2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

And let’s not forget… he apologized to the Germans! Why?! Because we helped to stop the holocaust and defeat Nazism? Or is it because we reunified their country after creating conditions that lead to the fall of the Berlin Wall? No, maybe it’s because we ensured the freedom of West Germany during the Cold War and caused the economic collapse of the Soviet Union.

Could someone post a quote of the part of this speech's transcript where he apologized? I didn't see the speech, but I read the transcript and I'm not seeing it. I might just be overlooking it though.

Tinia2 · #19 07-30-2008, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Could someone post a quote of the part of this speech's transcript where he apologized? I didn't see the speech, but I read the transcript and I'm not seeing it. I might just be overlooking it though.

i did not see/hear it either. but here it is for those who care to review it:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0..._n_114771.html

Hey AST, just where is your point?

ASTalumna06 · #20 07-31-2008, 12:19 PM

“I know my country has not perfected itself.” This comment was made in a country that was once controlled by Nazis.

“At times, we've struggled to keep the promise of liberty and equality for all of our people. We've made our share of mistakes, and there are times when our actions around the world have not lived up to our best intentions.”

He actually apologized for America. Is America perfect? No, that’s not what I’m saying at all. America has made mistakes in the past… major mistakes. The point is, he made this apology in Germany. He could have been in any country in the entire world, and he chose Germany. Probably because Germany was safe for him. And why is that? Oh, that’s right, it’s largely because of us.

And again, HE DOES NOT REPRESENT THE UNITED STATES. He was even turned down by the German Chancellor to speak in front of the Brandenburg Gate, as it is deemed a backdrop for U.S. Presidents. But Obama represents Illinois, which is part of the United States. The same way that you are part of a chapter of your fraternity/sorority, but you do not in any way represent or speak on behalf of your entire organization. If you’re the president of your chapter, you would most likely be seen as the “leader” of the chapter, and have the ability to make major statements on behalf of it. But how do you think the other members of your entire organization would feel if your chapter president decided to stand in front of hundreds of thousands of members of another fraternity/sorority, and apologize for your organization’s actions, when you a.) did nothing wrong to them, and b.) helped them in a major way. Or imagine there is a new candidate for President for your national organization, and they do that same thing. I would imagine you’d be offended that someone who had not yet earned your vote had decided to speak for you and your entire fraternity/sorority.

People are claiming that his speech was “Reagan-esque”. But I disagree. When Reagan made his famous speech in Germany, he was actually President.

preciousjeni · #21 07-31-2008, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

“I know my country has not perfected itself.” This comment was made in a country that was once controlled by Nazis.

“At times, we've struggled to keep the promise of liberty and equality for all of our people. We've made our share of mistakes, and there are times when our actions around the world have not lived up to our best intentions.”

If that's an "apology" it's a pathetic one. It reads to me as a statement of fact and an indication that, perhaps, citizens of this country aren't as arrogant as the world thinks we are. But, I'm not seeing the so-called apology.

Do you honestly believe that's an apology or do you just not like Obama?

Anyway, Obama wasn't speaking on behalf of me. What he said was

Quote:

Tonight, I speak to you not as a candidate for President, but as a citizen - a proud citizen of the United States, and a fellow citizen of the world.

Now, if he were President, he would be speaking on behalf of the United States because he would be our official spokesperson.

Seems like folks are blowing it way out of proportion in the same way the original article posted in this thread took things too far with McCain.

ASTalumna06 · #22 07-31-2008, 01:41 PM

But as a "citizen" of the United States, he stood up in front of thousands of Germans and said that America has made mistakes. Even if he wasn't apologizing in a literal sense, he was still making a statement of a large magnitude, knowing full well that he is not a "normal" citizen. Do you or I get to do that when we feel like it? He may have said that he's speaking as a citizen, but that is not what he portrays.

But hey, if hundreds of thousands of people really wanted to hear me speak, i'd try and keep them entertained for a little while.

preciousjeni · #23 07-31-2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

But as a "citizen" of the United States, he stood up in front of thousands of Germans and said that America has made mistakes. Even if he wasn't apologizing in a literal sense, he was still making a statement of a large magnitude, knowing full well that he is not a "normal" citizen. Do you or I get to do that when we feel like it? He may have said that he's speaking as a citizen, but that is not what he portrays.

I'm not a jingoistic citizen by any stretch of the imagination. I don't mind admitting, on an international level, that America has made mistakes and has a ways to go. In fact, I appreciate it. I wish our current President would be so gracious more often as I firmly believe it would improve our global reputation.

If I were standing in front of thousands of Germans (or anyone for that matter) I wouldn't have a problem making the same statements. It's realistic and honest. Even if no one ever said it, it would still be true.

Then again, I seem to be in the minority around here with regard to the global perception of America as I don't mind when non-citizens poke fun at America's national leaders. That's another thread though.

AGDee · #24 07-31-2008, 03:14 PM

The greatest thing about our Constitution is that it gives us the right to free speech. We are allowed to be critical of our government or our country's actions. Each and every one of us is free to stand up and give our opinion of our government and our country.

That said, I don't even think saying that we're not perfect and we've made mistakes is being critical. Find me a country that's made no mistakes ever. Women weren't able to vote until 1920, that was a mistake. Prohibition? Slavery? Vietnam? Since we are a government of the people, by the people and for the people, we, as people are going to make mistakes and that's just plain and simple reality.

ASTalumna06 · #25 07-31-2008, 04:21 PM

The plain and simple reality is that HE IS INEXPERIENCED. He doesn't know what he is doing. And if you ask a good portion of his supporters, they don't know what he's doing either, and they don't know why they're voting for him. Of the people I've asked, not one of them can tell me anything about what he stands for. Because he hasn't been in politics long enough to establish himself. The only thing that I hear people saying is that he's an eloquent and articulate speaker. Well that's great. He'll be president. And when I'm paying taxes out my ass and I'm "punished" with a child, I'll be joyed at the fact that his grammar and verbal communication skills are exceptional.

preciousjeni · #26 07-31-2008, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

The plain and simple reality is that HE IS INEXPERIENCED. He doesn't know what he is doing. And if you ask a good portion of his supporters, they don't know what he's doing either, and they don't know why they're voting for him. Of the people I've asked, not one of them can tell me anything about what he stands for. Because he hasn't been in politics long enough to establish himself. The only thing that I hear people saying is that he's an eloquent and articulate speaker. Well that's great. He'll be president. And when I'm paying taxes out my ass and I'm "punished" with a child, I'll be joyed at the fact that his grammar and verbal communication skills are exceptional.

So, it's the latter, eh?

Quote:

Do you honestly believe that's an apology or do you just not like Obama?

ASTalumna06 · #27 07-31-2008, 05:08 PM

Did I say that I didn't like Obama? Personally, I don't know him. How someone says they "hate" someone without knowing them, I have no idea.

Would I like for him to be the next President? Hell no. And reasons for that are endless. The ones that I've outlined for you here are only the beginning. And quite frankly, him not being experienced is the foundation for those reasons, and the motive for me to vote for the other guy.

Tinia2 · #28 07-31-2008, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Did I say that I didn't like Obama? Personally, I don't know him. How someone says they "hate" someone without knowing them, I have no idea.

Would I like for him to be the next President? Hell no. And reasons for that are endless. The ones that I've outlined for you here are only the beginning. And quite frankly, him not being experienced is the foundation for those reasons, and the motive for me to vote for the other guy.

so you are wishing for four more years of bush???

KSig RC · #29 07-31-2008, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinia2

so you are wishing for four more years of bush???

Yes - clearly, not liking Obama and saying "that's why I'm voting for [McCain]" means "I wish wholeheartedly for four years of Bush."

Tinia2 · #30 07-31-2008, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Yes - clearly, not liking Obama and saying "that's why I'm voting for [McCain]" means "I wish wholeheartedly for four years of Bush."

ok. great part of being in america is that one can do what ever one wishes with their vote. however, just as www.snopes.com was introduced to the group in a thread a few days ago, i would like to introduce another very good, well known site: http://factcheck.org/ it is worth the time it takes for a look see.