Ole Miss drops GPA exceptions for rush

[CBU Jeff]

I assume that's why most schools go to a deferred recruitment. They a given a chance to see if these PNM's can handle college academics, at least one semester. But I do have to agree with UGAalum94, it might control the drop rate.

[ajuhdg]

Thank you for diverting this topic from 'GPA standards as a way to keep out students with disabilities'. That is such a crock. Sigmadiva is right, learning disability does NOT equal dumb or low GPA.

Why do high schools/universities even have GPAs? It's a way for them to measure success, progress, and performance in the courses one attempts. We could probably do away with them, but with the natural competitive instinct 'Pass/Fail' would never fly.

Most organizations do have GPA standards...I believe all of us have an officer responsible for making sure grades are kept high, etc. too. I've seen some schools where a minimum is set, and then the sororities will make their own which exceed the school minimum.

I guess I just don't see what the big deal is.

[LAblondeGPhi]

I'm going to throw my support for the side that says this is NOT discrimination against students with learning disabilities. I am also of the opinion that if you have a GPA below 2.5 coming into college, there are some serious concerns about her ability to handle college academics.

Now, I empathize and understand the struggles associated with learning disabilities, but are there not varying levels of learning disabilities? Are there not some students who struggle and manage to get decent grades? Are there not students who seek treatment who get great grades, but with perhaps a little more effort than others? Absolutely. To lump all students with learning disabilities into one category seems unfair for some, and like an excuse for others. I would be money that there are plenty of students with a diagnosis and a decent GPA going through recruitment.

Another item I'd like clarified in this discussion is how Ole Miss handles their students with learning disabiltites. Do they give them a GPA break or exemption? Do they give them extra time on the tests or less coursework? What is the standard by which the university measures the success/acheivement of these special needs students? Shouldn't that be an allowable standard that Panhellenic could follow? Should these students' GPAs not get counted for their chapters' average GPA?

Perhaps this GPA requirement is best served on a case-by-case basis by Panhellenic. If you get diagnosed by something 2 weeks before the recruitment application forms are due.. maybe that would be a little fishy. There are plenty of doctors who have good intentions, are family friends, or are getting some pressure to help a good kid out by giving a diagnosis. If you have clearly been struggling with this for years and the university will give you certain GPA leeway, then fine. I do think there can be a certain culture of overdiagnosis and using ADD, ADHD, or others as a crutch when the problem may be something else.

To say that this is blanket discrimination, I think, is being oversensitive. There are many standards and minimum expectations set by the campus Panhellenics, NPC and by individual chapters, and if a chapter (or the Greek system as a whole) is going to be penalized (whether actually or by perception) for GPAs, then it's in their best intersted to uphold those standards. My point has a caveat if the university has specific GPA exceptions for these students.

[RU OX Alum]

Okay...having standards is a form of discrimination

all fraternites and sororites discriminate on some basis, (at least the ones worth joining) but most of us admit to it, and don't try to hide it and be all PC

I'm not welcome in your group for reason x, then fine, you are a private group, and simillarly , i can black ball you for whichever reason I choose. however, i'm not going to say that something is fair and open to everyone, then run to an umbrella group to make some kind of rule because i don't want to admit to myself that i discriminate. Having standards means you discern, and discriminate, against those who aren't up standards

and mysticcat, yes that does fit the definition of discrimination: for example, let's say the standard is extra curricular involvement. Someone could have an outstanding "rush resume" (i would black ball someone for having one) but not be in any other clubs. Well, if that is your standard, you through everything else (individual merit) out of the window.

Although, I must ask, if it's such a non-issue, then why remove the exceptions?

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

basically it's a way for them to say "something is wrong with you, so we don't want you in" that's what discrimination is.

But none of the sororities wants to come out and say "we don't want anyone with learning disableties to join" so they made an NPC rule basically saying the same thing

Maybe you're just playing devil's advocate, but don't get started with discrimination in the NPC...I think men's fraternities have a lot more discrimination to hide than we do! Making choices always means that someone is the loser. Everyone would have to be able to do everything they ever wanted without ever being told they aren't qualified if we want to completely get rid of this "discrimination" you speak of...unfortunately, that's completely not feasible.

[libelle]

At most universities and colleges, faculty provide accomodation to students with a documented learning disability. Accomodation includes extra time on an exam for dyslexia, an individual to read exam questions to a eyesight impaired student, a sign language translator for a hearing impaired student, etc. Accomodation helps level the playing field so that the disability's effect on a student's ability to learn and perform is reduced.

A student with a GPA < 2.5 needs to focus on her studies in order to land a good job, attend grad school etc. In fact, a student with a GPA < 3.0 should be more focused on academics too.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Maybe you're just playing devil's advocate, but don't get started with discrimination in the NPC...I think men's fraternities have a lot more discrimination to hide than we do! Making choices always means that someone is the loser. Everyone would have to be able to do everything they ever wanted without ever being told they aren't qualified if we want to completely get rid of this "discrimination" you speak of...unfortunately, that's completely not feasible.

Please re-read my whole post. I said discrimination, basically, was a good thing.

I'm not playing devil's advocate, i don't do that. I stated my opinion (because this is all just opinion, who should and shouldn't join are just people's opinions).

And yeah, some ONE is the looser. But shouldn't you decide on that person if s/he is the loser, rather than some number that comes in? I would feel better about my decission in that case, were I the one to decide.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

and mysticcat, yes that does fit the definition of discrimination: for example, let's say the standard is extra curricular involvement. Someone could have an outstanding "rush resume" (i would black ball someone for having one) but not be in any other clubs. Well, if that is your standard, you through everything else (individual merit) out of the window.

Billy, I don't think that's discrimination, at least not in the sense the word seems to be being used here (discrimimation against people with learning disabilities, which is not at all necessarily the same group as people with GPA under 2.5).

Discrimination is when you judge a person based on a category he "belongs" to -- race, skin color, religion, hair color. too short, too heavy, whatever -- rather than on individual merit. In the example you gave, you are judging the person on merit; his lack of involvement in other extra-curricular activities suggests to you that he will not be an involved member of your fraternity or will not be a good "public face" for your fraternity.

Now, if you mean "discriminating" as in discriminating taste or judgment, I'll agree with you. I agree that GLOs do, and should do, that all the time. But that's just not the same as discriminating against someone, which is what I understood you to be talking about.

[WaterChild]

I think that there's nothing wrong with this at all.

If someone has a learning disability, they should have received the extra attention/time needed to earn above a 2.5 gpa in HIGH SCHOOL. They shouldn't expect even more special attention in college. Sure, some high schools don't have the resources to provide extra attention to help disabled students, but I think that most girls rushing at Ole Miss come from a different background than that. A 2.5 gpa is very low for high school. Many of you keep talking about how students should receive benefits and extra test time in college, and you make it seem like you don't realize that these students would have gotten the extra help in high school.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Billy, I don't think that's discrimination, at least not in the sense the word seems to be being used here (discrimimation against people with learning disabilities, which is not at all necessarily the same group as people with GPA under 2.5).

Discrimination is when you judge a person based on a category he "belongs" to -- race, skin color, religion, hair color. too short, too heavy, whatever -- rather than on individual merit. In the example you gave, you are judging the person on merit; his lack of involvement in other extra-curricular activities suggests to you that he will not be an involved member of your fraternity or will not be a good "public face" for your fraternity.

Now, if you mean "discriminating" as in discriminating taste or judgment, I'll agree with you. I agree that GLOs do, and should do, that all the time. But that's just not the same as discriminating against someone, which is what I understood you to be talking about.

Yeah, words have different meanings and shades of meanings, and i think there was some mis-communication...

my problem isn't so much that discrimination is there, it's when it's there and people say it's not...and if you've never been on the bad end of it, it can't really be explained how it feels

And yeah, i said that no one is coming right out and saying "no special needs girls" but that will probably be the end effect, and that, to me, is discrimination

ETA: also, there should be standards, but to not take into account other mittigating circumstances is kind of short sighted, in my opinion

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by WaterChild

I think that there's nothing wrong with this at all.

If someone has a learning disability, they should have received the extra attention/time needed to earn above a 2.5 gpa in HIGH SCHOOL. They shouldn't expect even more special attention in college. Sure, some high schools don't have the resources to provide extra attention to help disabled students, but I think that most girls rushing at Ole Miss come from a different background than that. A 2.5 gpa is very low for high school. Many of you keep talking about how students should receive benefits and extra test time in college, and you make it seem like you don't realize that these students would have gotten the extra help in high school.

Yes.

Extended test time, etc. was there in high school. Which is why it is there in college (the one I went to anyway).

But now I have another question: why in the world would anyone base anything in college (beyond admission to the college/university/program/magjor/whatever) base anything on something from high school?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

But now I have another question: why in the world would anyone base anything in college (beyond admission to the college/university/program/major/whatever) on something from high school?

This is one of the main reasons I like deferred rush.

Sometimes your performance in high school (good or bad) has NO relation to how you perform in college. Not most of the time, but sometimes.

Maybe Susie has a 4.0 because her parents did all her homework for her. When she gets to college, pledges, has to do her own work and promptly flunks out - taking your rituals and letters with her. (Unless she's pledging Chi Omega.)

[NutBrnHair]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

But now I have another question: why in the world would anyone base anything in college (beyond admission to the college/university/program/magjor/whatever) base anything on something from high school?

In my opinion, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

What an individual has done (or not done) in the first 18 years of life is significant.

[exlurker]

Originally Posted by WaterChild

. . . . If someone has a learning disability, they should have received the extra attention/time needed to earn above a 2.5 gpa in HIGH SCHOOL. They shouldn't expect even more special attention in college. Sure, some high schools don't have the resources to provide extra attention to help disabled students, but I think that most girls rushing at Ole Miss come from a different background than that. A 2.5 gpa is very low for high school. Many of you keep talking about how students should receive benefits and extra test time in college, and you make it seem like you don't realize that these students would have gotten the extra help in high school.

WaterChild -- and others -- colleges and universities are required by law to provide services and accommodations for students with disabilities, including those with learning disabilities. A question-and-answer overview of some of the major issues is available:

http://www.pacer.org/publications/adaqa/504.asp

This ^ is only one of many possible sources of information about the rights and responsibilities of postsecondary students with disabilities, and college / university services for them. There aren't necessarily easy one-size-fits-all
answers to each individual student's situation.

Yes, it's true that many students with disabilities receive needed services in high school and elementary school; however, they may also require services while in college.

[WaterChild]

Oops, I didn't quite say what I meant.

Of course colleges and universities provide those services and accommodations. I think that it should be pretty clear that if a student can't get through high school okay - with help - then it should be pretty clear that no matter what resources are available to them in college, they need to focus on academics, not greek life. I just meant to point out that usually these students would have gotten help in high school and shouldn't make excuses. If anything, the 2.5 gpa minimum should serve as a warning and a goal marker for girls who hope to rush.