Blindfolds as Hazing?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by AGDee

There have been auto accidents where some of the passengers in the car were blindfolded on the way to a "secret" location and weren't able to evacuate the car quickly, immediately assess the situation, get their blind folds off, etc.

Ah.. is that what was on the plaintiff's pleadings? I'm sorry, I don't really buy that. The removal of a blindfold is not a difficult or time consuming thing.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Ah.. is that what was on the plaintiff's pleadings? I'm sorry, I don't really buy that. The removal of a blindfold is not a difficult or time consuming thing.

I don't believe it went to court because the parties in question weren't suing and they ditched the blindfolds and got the drunk pledges (not all were drinking) out of there before the police arrived at the scene of the accident. The pledges were triple blindfolded. Eye patches taped to each eye, then a typical blindfold around the eyes and tied in back and a then a hood (pillowcase) over the head and tied around the neck by the rope. Pledges were assisted in and out of the cars by actives who yanked them by the ropes. One pledge banged his head against a door jamb of a car when "assisted" from one car and suffered permanent hearing loss. In the ER, he only said that he hit his head on the door jamb of a car.

One car of pledges was in a rollover accident and took considerably longer to get out of the car than the actives in the car who were not blindfolded. Fuel was leaking and actives in the car behind them managed to stop and get them out before the car went up in flames, but it was close. This was in a less litigious time period (mid 80's) but it's these types of events that lead to these rules. I'm fairly certain it's one of the rules laid out by our liability insurance. As you said in the "Does your chapter haze" thread, most of these rules are set for financial reasons (dictated by the insurance companies).

[RaggedyAnn]

Do we really need to go into the dangers of car accidents while hazing blind folded new members?

[tld221]

oh come ON! those scenarios ^^^ (which sound so ridiculous but lets say ok they did happen) are so ridiculous.

ok i said the same thing twice. triple-blindfolding? and what are the odds that you get in a car accident on the way to some ritual, a car full of blindfolded pledges in tow?

if those are the reason that led courts to say "blindfolding = hazing" sheesh. this is similar to "lets use fake candles during ritual because all of those ppl getting their hair caught on fire." umm, grab a scrunchie and move on.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by tld221

this is similar to "lets use fake candles during ritual because all of those ppl getting their hair caught on fire." umm, grab a scrunchie and move on.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[RaggedyAnn]

Originally Posted by tld221

oh come ON! those scenarios ^^^ (which sound so ridiculous but lets say ok they did happen) are so ridiculous.

ok i said the same thing twice. triple-blindfolding? and what are the odds that you get in a car accident on the way to some ritual, a car full of blindfolded pledges in tow?

if those are the reason that led courts to say "blindfolding = hazing" sheesh. this is similar to "lets use fake candles during ritual because all of those ppl getting their hair caught on fire." umm, grab a scrunchie and move on.

Kelly Nester, Plymouth State University, 2003

[CULater]

anything and everything involved in pledging, new member education can be argued as hazing since it is such a vague term.

the sad thing is, that sometimes, when it clearly IS hazing but didn't cause death (ex. hospitalization involved after a paddling or other physical harm), the defendants get off on the technicality that hazing is so vague.

Originally Posted by RaggedyAnn

Kelly Nester, Plymouth State University, 2003

That was so sad.

For anyone else who might have missed the thread: http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...ad.php?t=71234

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by 33girl

There are no cars or freeways involved in APO ritual.

Nor in the Delt Ritual.

I can see potential Risk Management issues, though, and I hadn't really considered them before.

Two obvious ones might be a fall or injury due to the blindfolded person not seeing an obstacle or that person getting too close to a lighted candle (assuming some rituals use candles).

As for hazing, to me it depends on how and when the blindfolds are used. I might have a problem with it other than in rituals, and then assuming they are strictly controlled with no chance of harm.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by RaggedyAnn

Kelly Nester, Plymouth State University, 2003

Not to diminish her death in any way, however, what did the blindfold have to do with her death?\

ETA: CLEARLY hazing was involved, but the blindfold seems to be rather minor given that the other women were able to escape from the car.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by RaggedyAnn

Do we really need to go into the dangers of car accidents while hazing blind folded new members?

But your argument is that they were hurt while blindfolded and possibly could have been hurt more because of the blindfolding.

Do you not see that the fact that someone could be hurt doing something doesn't make that thing hazing? It could be dangerous, but not hazing.

But really... having a national rule because of something that happened one or two times ever is just silly.

[AGDee]

I was actually not saying that all blind folding is hazing, but that it is a risk that can be managed. Not all risk management is hazing. And, while that scenario seems unlikely, it happened.

This isn't that dissimilar to some of the child safety laws that are enacted. Can you believe that most people my age never had car seats? Yet, many states now require them and are now requiring booster seats until age 8. Yes, our hooded sweatshirts and coats used to have draw strings on them until some kid got hers stuck on a monkey bar and choked to death. Our mattresses weren't flame retardant and neither were our pajamas, but they are now (in fact I heard this morning that the flame retardant is a carcinogen, so you have a choice of your bed burning or getting cancer.. we can't win). It's kind of amazing that we're even alive. Our mothers smoked and drank while they were pregnant too.. and ate lunch meat.

Bottom line, it's a different time and people sue over everything. Good risk management is doing all you can to avoid accidents and harm to our members. The rules are dictated by the insurance companies who, we hope, prevent our organizations from being bankrupt by some crazy lawsuit, but they only cover us if we are following the rules.

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Not to diminish her death in any way, however, what did the blindfold have to do with her death?

If she wasn't blindfolded, maybe she could have avoided flying out the rear window to her death.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by naraht

The use of Blindfolds in this case is specifically as part of the Nationally designated rituals and the caveat about school rules and state laws is written in the ritual.

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

As for hazing, to me it depends on how and when the blindfolds are used. I might have a problem with it other than in rituals, and then assuming they are strictly controlled with no chance of harm.

Yep.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by OTW

If she wasn't blindfolded, maybe she could have avoided flying out the rear window to her death.

I didn't recall this story, so I've been reading up on it. It looks like the lack of seatbelts and the fact that ten women were piled into one car contributed more than the blindfolds. While I don't believe the blindfolds had anything to do with her death, I also don't think there's ever any reason to blindfold people outside of specific ritual as mandated by an organization.