Wilders' controversial "Fitna" now on web

[shinerbock]

If there was any semblance of a widespread rejection (active, not just verbally) of extremism, I might agree that this type of tactic should be questioned.

However, when the Sec. Gen of the UN is lashing out against the film as beyond the realm of free speech, while also asking politely for CALM REACTIONS, that is beyond frightening. Free speech is necessary for the EXACT purpose of things like this. Yet the UN is condemning the film while asking for calm. The fact that they anticipate a violent reaction should be a testament to the film itself.

If Europe continues to sit idly by, they'll be made to cower later.

[jon1856]

While looking around for more information about film I found this site.
And just by title, would seem to have some interest.
The hosting company thought otherwise!!!
http://www.fitnathemovie.com/
This site has been suspended while Network Solutions is investigating whether the site's content is in violation of the Network Solutions Acceptable Use Policy. Network Solutions has received a number of complaints regarding this site that are under investigation. For more information about Network Solutions Acceptable Use Policy visit the following URL: http://www.networksolutions.com/legal/aup.jsp

Web host suspends site planned for anti-Koran film
AMSTERDAM, March 23 (Reuters) - A U.S.-based web service, which Islam critic and Dutch right-wing lawmaker Geert Wilders planned to use to show his film critical of the Koran, said on Saturday that it had inactivated the site due to complaints.

"This site has been suspended while Network Solutions is investigating whether the site's content is in violation of the Network Solutions Acceptable Use Policy," the company said on the site
http://www.reuters.com/article/lates.../idUSL23679590

I did my search using just "Fitna" and came across over 20 news stories filed in the past 5 hours about it already.
Very few, if any, of any support.

[AKA_Monet]

This is all interesting... The rants made on the film, I can see the fear that many people may have. All I got to say is I am not afraid of those MF's--they best be afraid of me...

And since I do not want to be banned for what unintentionally say or think, I will leave it at that...

[RACooper]

I don't know what's less "shocking" here really.... that Wilders continued is his typical bigoted and racist vein, or that Shinerblock approves or supports his views.

Wilders is your typical bigoted/racist asshole, happily pontificating about his right to "Freedom or Speech or Expression" in one breadth, while advocating the banning and censoring of things like the Qu'ran with the next.

Personally I'm hoping the one of the legal investigations by the EU (for advocating human rights violations), the Netherlands (for treason), or civil courts (for a whole slew of racist and bigoted violations) goes through and tosses this tool in prison.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by RACooper

I don't know what's less "shocking" here really.... that Wilders continued is his typical bigoted and racist vein, or that Shinerblock approves or supports his views.

Wilders is your typical bigoted/racist asshole, happily pontificating about his right to "Freedom or Speech or Expression" in one breadth, while advocating the banning and censoring of things like the Qu'ran with the next.

Personally I'm hoping the one of the legal investigations by the EU (for advocating human rights violations), the Netherlands (for treason), or civil courts (for a whole slew of racist and bigoted violations) goes through and tosses this tool in prison.

IIRC the History Channel or Discovery did a program (maybe this one
http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=70652 )
about Islam.
It showed that today, many parts have been "co-opted by extremists".
But it also showed that this is not the very first time that has happened.
It is a religion that it seems that the masses rely a great deal upon the interpretive teaching/preaching of their religious leaders.
And those teaching can and do change.
It is all to easy to take phases out of context and link them together.
The program showed how that was/is done over the course of history.
How it has been swung both ways.
I just wish I was more sure about the program for it was very well done.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Personally I'm hoping the one of the legal investigations by the EU (for advocating human rights violations), the Netherlands (for treason), or civil courts (for a whole slew of racist and bigoted violations) goes through and tosses this tool in prison.

So you support people being throw in jail for their speech?

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

So you support people being throw in jail for their speech?

Yes. IF said "free speech" is used to violate the rights and freedom of others - just because you have freedom of speech doesn't mean you have freedom to commit a criminal offence or 'hate crime'. Wilders can easily be demonstrated to have a long history of 'hate crimes' as it specifically relates to immigrants, Muslims, non-Dutch speakers, non-Protestants, etc. - therefore in light of said pattern of conduct and history of attacks and violations of the criminal code of the Netherlands and the EU as it relates to discriminatory and hateful speech and acts I would happily applaud Wilders being tossed in the can (or at least fined)... unfortunately it'd only play into his hands as a "martyr" and "sufferer" for the "truth".

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Yes. IF said "free speech" is used to violate the rights and freedom of others - just because you have freedom of speech doesn't mean you have freedom to commit a criminal offence or 'hate crime'. Wilders can easily be demonstrated to have a long history of 'hate crimes' as it specifically relates to immigrants, Muslims, non-Dutch speakers, non-Protestants, etc. - therefore in light of said pattern of conduct and history of attacks and violations of the criminal code of the Netherlands and the EU as it relates to discriminatory and hateful speech and acts I would happily applaud Wilders being tossed in the can (or at least fined)... unfortunately it'd only play into his hands as a "martyr" and "sufferer" for the "truth".

Wait.

Maybe I'm being naive. Your speech, i.e. words, are now considered hate crimes and criminal offenses?

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Yes. IF said "free speech" is used to violate the rights and freedom of others - just because you have freedom of speech doesn't mean you have freedom to commit a criminal offence or 'hate crime'. Wilders can easily be demonstrated to have a long history of 'hate crimes' as it specifically relates to immigrants, Muslims, non-Dutch speakers, non-Protestants, etc. - therefore in light of said pattern of conduct and history of attacks and violations of the criminal code of the Netherlands and the EU as it relates to discriminatory and hateful speech and acts I would happily applaud Wilders being tossed in the can (or at least fined)... unfortunately it'd only play into his hands as a "martyr" and "sufferer" for the "truth".

How did this movie violate the rights of others? Is that the right to not have mean things said about you? I don't think I've ever seen the right to not have your feelings hurt mentioned in Magna Carta or the Constitution.

Instead of attacking the man, attack the movie. Attack the facts in the movie... were those not quotes from the Quran? Were those Muslim clerics misinterpreted? Were there not thousands of people cheering for the hateful speech being spewed by said clerics?

[preciousjeni]

My computer is acting up. Anyway, is this the film:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02968312745410

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by PhiGam

Instead of attacking the man, attack the movie. Attack the facts in the movie... were those not quotes from the Quran? Were those Muslim clerics misinterpreted? Were there not thousands of people cheering for the hateful speech being spewed by said clerics?

It's impossible to separate the man and the movie, so the point is moot about 'attacking' one but not the other - like I stated in the post above it IS Wilders' film: he provided the funding, he wrote it, he directed it, he produced it, and he distributed it.

The film is nothing more and nothing less that 'hate' propaganda, no different from the shit produced by Hamas, Hezzbollah, the Aryan Nation, the Nazis, etc.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Yes. IF said "free speech" is used to violate the rights and freedom of others - just because you have freedom of speech doesn't mean you have freedom to commit a criminal offence or 'hate crime'. Wilders can easily be demonstrated to have a long history of 'hate crimes' as it specifically relates to immigrants, Muslims, non-Dutch speakers, non-Protestants, etc. - therefore in light of said pattern of conduct and history of attacks and violations of the criminal code of the Netherlands and the EU as it relates to discriminatory and hateful speech and acts I would happily applaud Wilders being tossed in the can (or at least fined)... unfortunately it'd only play into his hands as a "martyr" and "sufferer" for the "truth".

While this line of thinking might be how you all roll in Canada, I think I'd prefer to err on the generous freedom of speech side of things like we have in the US.

When speech becomes an act, then we're talking about something different, of course, but even then, I'm not 100% sure hate crime legislation makes sense to me. Does the racial or ethnic motivation really make a brutal murder worse that a brutal murder with no racial motivation? Sometimes it seems worse; other times all brutal murders seem equally as bad.

And Wilders being a jerk doesn't really change what's presented in this film really. Aren't you kind of shifting to ad hominem here? Wilders is a hateful jerk so the claims of the film have no merit kind of thing?

How do you respond to the links made by the film? Do you think the speech and actions he connects are actually just somehow coincidental?

ETA: I don't actually see myself watching the film any time soon. But the descriptions that I read of it seem well within what any society ought to allow, especially if you are linking the words of extremist with their own actions.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

While this line of thinking might be how you all roll in Canada, I think I'd prefer to err on the generous freedom of speech side of things like we have in the US.

True... up here the propagation of "hateful" literature or media in furtherance of an agenda of hate is considered a criminal act - this extends to "truthful" media or literature vetted to advance said agenda... it's why the likes of Fred Phelps or Jack Chick are banned up here basically.

One's legal rights to freedom of speech can't be used to violate another's right to live free from ethnic or religious persecution.

When speech becomes an act, then we're talking about something different, of course, but even then, I'm not 100% sure hate crime legislation makes sense to me. Does the racial or ethnic motivation really make a brutal murder worse that a brutal murder with no racial motivation? Sometimes it seems worse; other times all brutal murders seem equally as bad.

I'd say that it is worse - simply because the attacker chose the victim more or less at random from a group, not for interpersonal or criminally profitable reasons... which is more troublesome and frightening as it applies to the victim and victimized group.

And Wilders being a jerk doesn't really change what's presented in this film really. Aren't you kind of shifting to ad hominem here? Wilders is a hateful jerk so the claims of the film have no merit kind of thing?

Wilder's motivation plays heavily into the treatment and consideration of the film - he is a politician with strident anti-Islamic views... so if he funds, writes, directs, and produces a film on the subject of Islam, the views and motivations of the writer/producer/director should of course be considered when viewing the 'product' shouldn't it?

How do you respond to the links made by the film? Do you think the speech and actions he connects are actually just somehow coincidental?

Not at all - Wilders carefully selected the quotes and actions for the greatest impact, and to portray both Islam in as negative a light as possible. As for how I respond to them? The same way I'd respond to any other carefully constructed hate propaganda - the best propaganda carefully manages the 'truth' to present it in a way that is as supportive as possible to the ideological 'message'.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by RACooper

I don't know what's less "shocking" here really.... that Wilders continued is his typical bigoted and racist vein, or that Shinerblock approves or supports his views.

Wilders is your typical bigoted/racist asshole, happily pontificating about his right to "Freedom or Speech or Expression" in one breadth, while advocating the banning and censoring of things like the Qu'ran with the next.

Personally I'm hoping the one of the legal investigations by the EU (for advocating human rights violations), the Netherlands (for treason), or civil courts (for a whole slew of racist and bigoted violations) goes through and tosses this tool in prison.

[moe.ron]

I do find it ironic that a man who belong to an anti-immigration party is himself a byproduct of immigration.