The first sorority to demand equal rights

[nittanyalum]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

Sorry to go on about this. I find the issue of names and the law very interesting. Especially the assumption that the "traditional" thing is for a woman to take her husband's name. That is actually a (relatively) recent innovation in Western culture, dating from the mid-to-late 18th c. (It began earlier in England than on the continent however.) Before that women always retained their maiden names. This is the case for the women I research in 17th-early 18th c. France.

And then there's the hispanic naming conventions where the children take both the father and the mother's surnames. Some women never drop those surnames as their "maiden name" and just add their husband's name with "de X" after their proper full surname.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

And then there's the hispanic naming conventions where the children take both the father and the mother's surnames. Some women never drop those surnames as their "maiden name" and just add their husband's name with "de X" after their proper full surname.

Right. This is actually indicative of the traditional (pre-18th century) practice of name conventions, which in Spain and its colonies never fully switched over to what we might call the English model (as France & Germany & et al did) in which a woman completely drops her maiden name in general use (although may retain it as a unused middle name).

I should also mention that England's earlier adoption of this naming convention is related to its particularly restrictive coverture, which severely limited women's legal personhood to a degree unseen on the continent.

In European countries before the naming shift of the 18th century, elite women (eg titled aristocrats, maybe 5% or less of the population) would take the noble adjective of their husband as you mention. In France (and I guess Spain) this would be "de" and in Germany "von." Originally such prefixes indicated nobility and was indicative of a royal style. So for example one of the nobles I've studied quite a bit was Nikolaus Ludwig von Zinzendorf. In that case he had no "technical" last name (as indeed many European royality don't have last names to this day except for legal reasons) but the "von" indicated that he was "from" somewhere (his family's estate) and that he was a noble... Sort of like saying "duke of ......." would be today. Or you could think of George Gordon, who was Lord Byron. Byron wasn't his last name but rather the name of his house/title. A noble woman who married would consequently adopt her husband's royal name/style (eg Lady Byron). As time passed prefixes like "de" and "von" became less and less restricted to the nobility however.

Speaking of the Latin American model, I've seen a lot of professional women (mostly women in academia which is my field) who are now choosing to take their husband's name (as opposed to either keeping their name or hyphenating) but using their maiden name as a middle name for professional purposes. Using my earlier example this would be calling themselves "Jane Smith Doe" for all professional purposes but also having the flexibility outside of the professional world to be "Jane Doe". One of my friends has done this actually.

[SWTXBelle]

Actually, using your maiden name as a middle name has been a long-time southern convention. My name is Belle MaidenName MarriedName. Also, using family surnames for given names - my eldest son is named Jackson for my maternal grandmother's maiden name.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

I know, right? Who knew?!

[Senusret I]

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by TSteven

And isn't it also correct that if John Doe, Senior passes, and there is no Mrs. John Doe, Senior, then John Doe, Junior should drop "Junior".

I didn't know this until Jesse Jackson Jr. became JJ Sr. after his father passed, and Congressman JJ III became JJ Jr. I was so confused.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

I didn't know this until Jesse Jackson Jr. became JJ Sr. after his father passed, and Congressman JJ III became JJ Jr. I was so confused.

I didn't even notice this had happened at all!

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Actually, using your maiden name as a middle name has been a long-time southern convention. My name is Belle MaidenName MarriedName. Also, using family surnames for given names - my eldest son is named Jackson for my maternal grandmother's maiden name.

I didn't know my mother had a middle name for the longest, because she used her maiden name as her middle name when ever she signed anything. LOL.

This practice seems to be making a resurgence, since I know many who have recently adopted it usually after the death of their father. And I don't mean hyphenated.

[ComradesTrue]

I "heart" this thread.

Thanks to everyone for contributing such interesting information.

[DSTRen13]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

I didn't know my mother had a middle name for the longest, because she used her maiden name as her middle name when ever she signed anything. LOL.

LOL - exactly! I think I was in middle school or something when I finally found out my mom's middle name (although I don't think it's still a legal part of her name) since she goes by FirstName MaidenName LastName. Most ladies around here do this, I think. (I'm just weird ... I'm FirstName MiddleName MyLastName-HisLastName, and so is he. )

[33girl]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

I didn't know my mother had a middle name for the longest, because she used her maiden name as her middle name when ever she signed anything. LOL.

This practice seems to be making a resurgence, since I know many who have recently adopted it usually after the death of their father. And I don't mean hyphenated.

My dad and his brother both married women with the same first name, and with middle names that started w/ the same initial. My mom used ZsaZsa MaidenName LastName, my aunt uses ZsaZsa MiddleName LastName. Even so, people still got it confused (mainly because my last name is unusual and people just assumed there couldn't be more than one person w/ that name).

[Low C Sharp]

Everyone I know from Miss Manners to Emily Post agree

Miss Manners would always stress, though, that a person's choices always trump the "rules." In other words, you call people what they want to be called, and it is rude to do otherwise. When a person introduces himself as Lord Henry Higginbottom the Eighth, that's what you call him. If an older person insists that you call her by her first name, not "Mrs. Jones," you oblige her.

I am a HUGE Miss Manners fan.
________
Web shows

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by TSteven

I know of a few "juniors" who continue to use junior out of respect to their Daddy. Most of these juniors are in situations where he lives in the same town or area where he was reared. Or because of professional or social situations where his Daddy was known by the same people as "John Doe, Senior".

I know this is the rule, but I know few families that follow it, including my own. (My brother is an IV.) I think a lot of it has to do with the family being well known (locally) and everybody being used to who is Jr., III, IV etc. (I was taught that one never uses Sr.) It just gets too confusing when people die and then before you know it, the guy whom everyone has always known as IV is Jr.

Then, of course, you have to factor in the guys known as "Trey" or "Tripp" because they're the III. I actually know one man who goes by "IV." It's just too much to change.

Besides, the catalog companies, alumni association databses, etc., would never be able to keep up.

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

Traditionally in common law people could pretty much adopt whatever name they wanted. . . . That idea is nearly dead now and the assumption is that you must file records when you want to change your name for any reason.

It's not legally dead, although in may be dead in practice. In NC, at least, you can still legally change your name anytime you like just by using a new name. However, don't expect DMV or the Social Security Administration to recognize your new name without a court order, marriage license, divorce decree or the like.

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

And then there's the hispanic naming conventions where the children take both the father and the mother's surnames.

And then there's the old Scandinavian tradition, still used in Iceland, where your last name depends on your father's first name, and a family of four can have four different last names. Say dad's name is Eric -- his son, Leif, is Leif Ericsson (Eric's son), and his daughter, we'll call her Katrín, is Katrín Ericsdóttir (Eric's daughter). Meanwhile, Helga -- Eric's wife and the mother of Leif and Katrín -- is the daughter of a man named Jón, so her last name is Jónsdóttir. Oh, and Eric's dad's first name was Stefán, so his name is Eric Stefánsson.

So, in one family, you have Eric Stefánsson (husband) and Helga Jónsdóttir (wife) and their kids: Leif Ericsson and Katrín Ericsdóttir.

Just to get this back a little to topic, I understand that there is some trend in Iceland -- sometimes because the father is out of the picture and sometimes as a social statement -- to use the mother's name as the basis for the last name. So, say, Eric abandoned his family, the kids might choose to go by Leif Helguson and Katrín Helgusdóttir.

[ForeverRoses]

Originally Posted by 33girl

My dad and his brother both married women with the same first name, and with middle names that started w/ the same initial. My mom used ZsaZsa MaidenName LastName, my aunt uses ZsaZsa MiddleName LastName. Even so, people still got it confused (mainly because my last name is unusual and people just assumed there couldn't be more than one person w/ that name).

And this is why I didn't change my name when I got married. I already had a middle name that I liked- it is my godmother's name. I wasn't comfortable just dropping it and using my last name as my middle name. I also really like my last name, and since my Dad is a geneologist I know the history behind it and am proud of that. And my name and my husband's name don't hyphenate well. So I ended up keeping my name. (My kids have my husband's last name but the cats have my last name!). So now when telemarketers call and ask for "Mrs. Husband's name" I can honestly say there is noone there by that name!

[aopirose]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Great info. Thanks. Is there a book (non-GLO specific) where this kind of info can be accessed? I would love to own such a book and pass it on to affiliated and nonaffiliated men and women. I know a lot of info won't be discussed in such a book but it's always good to be reminded and give credit where it is due.

I found this book, Radical Pacifism: The War Resisters League and Gandhian Nonviolence in America, 1915-1963 by Scott H. Bennett. Jessie was a founder of The War Resisters League and for many years it was headquartered in her home. The organization is still going strong today.

When she was younger she attended, Northfield Seminary which was a Congregationalist female boarding school. It is non-sectarian now but I have often wondered if those Congregationalist views are what partly helped to form her views. Jessie also wrote several books on socialism and was a member of the Socialist Party. She even published anti-war poetry.

I searched in the NY Times archives and there are some early articles involving her. Unfortunately, there is a fee involved to see the majority of them.

Another of our founders, Stella George Stern Perry, was heavily involved with women's and children's welfare issues. It was through her that we adopted the child labor issue.