The 2008 presidential field at-a-glance

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by LeslieAGD

I'm surprised to hear you say you like her and most of her politics but won't vote for her because of her husband, the Bush Family, and polarization. Those are not exactly things she could control.

On a side note, the more I hear from/about Obama, the less I like him.

Well, depending on how you look at it, her long term philandering husband is something she could have controlled. . .

Would you have put up with Bill's crap? Bill's especially public cheating on you for years with multiple women?

She had the option (and good reason) to no longer being related to him.

I also think her own actions make her a polarizing figure, so the idea that it's not in her control is a little weird.

And if everything else were equally appealing about two candidates, wouldn't it be better to choose the one who broke out of the inner establishment echo chamber?

(Now, I don't know if things ARE really equal, but I think the avoidance of the kind of dynasty crap we're seeing is a valid point.)

[LeslieAGD]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Well, depending on how you look at it, her long term philandering husband is something she could have controlled. . .

Would you have put up with Bill's crap? Bill's especially public cheating on you for years with multiple women?

She had the option (and good reason) to no longer being related to him.

I don't know...it's easy to stand on the sidelines and say "yes, she should have dumped his sorry ass." But unless it's your life and your family, it's kind of hard to judge.

I think that has very little to do with her ability to be a good president. In fact, I give her some credit for being able to endure that all that in the public eye and still hold her head up...whether you like her or not, that takes strength.

[AGDee]

I have heard people express what UGA Alum has and I've heard the opposite.. that she is keeping her marriage covenant and working it out. Reality is, there are a lot of power couples who tolerate things in their marriage because there are still more advantages to remaining married for them. I won't tolerate a man who leaves the toilet seat up, but some women just deal with it

[scbelle]

Originally Posted by LeslieAGD

I give her some credit for being able to endure that all that in the public eye and still hold her head up...whether you like her or not, that takes strength.

Or it takes an insane amount of strategery and planning because you know that you yourself have office-aspirations and aren't likable or politically-savvy (like your genius, philandering husband) enough to get elected on your own.

[LeslieAGD]

Originally Posted by scbelle

Or it takes an insane amount of strategery and planning because you know that you yourself have office-aspirations and aren't likable or politically-savvy (like your genius, philandering husband) enough to get elected on your own.

Again, it's hard to know what goes on behind closed doors but I don't think her first thought was "I plan to stick this out so that I, myself, can run for the presidency in 10 years."

I disagree that she's not likable or politically savvy...But hey, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[scbelle]

I would agree with you that it probably wasn't her first thought. Her first thought probably was along the lines of, "I'm going to castrate you, you lying sack of you-know-what." The staying with him for political gain was probably her second thought. I jest of course...

But when you're faced with making a decision, you either consciously or subconsciously weigh the pros and cons, figure what the payoff is. Honestly, I can't see much payoff staying with a man who has serially cheated on me and embarrassed me to the nth degree. You're right, we don't know what goes on behind closed doors. I never have liked Hillary, so honestly, I skew my opinion of her motives unfavorably.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by LeslieAGD

I don't know...it's easy to stand on the sidelines and say "yes, she should have dumped his sorry ass." But unless it's your life and your family, it's kind of hard to judge.

I think that has very little to do with her ability to be a good president. In fact, I give her some credit for being able to endure that all that in the public eye and still hold her head up...whether you like her or not, that takes strength.

Or it takes a steely resolve to look after your own best longterm political interest as the expense of being authentic or holding resolved moral values . You say tomato and I say. . .

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Or it takes a steely resolve to look after your own best longterm political interest as the expense of being authentic or holding resolved moral values . You say tomato and I say. . .

Wouldn't a resolved moral value be that marriage is "till death do we part?"

[LeslieAGD]

Originally Posted by scbelle

I never have liked Hillary, so honestly, I skew my opinion of her motives unfavorably.

And you are entitled to your opinion...for me, her personal struggles just don't play much of a role in whether or not I think she is capable of being president. I like many of her ideas, and I like that she seems to discuss her plans for how she hopes to accomplish things (unlike Obama who, to me, sounds like a broken record that keeps repeating the words "change" and "hope").

Originally Posted by GeekyPenguin

Wouldn't a resolved moral value be that marriage is "till death do we part?"

Touche!

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by GeekyPenguin

Wouldn't a resolved moral value be that marriage is "till death do we part?"

How about the "forsaking all others part" for Bill?

If you think "till death do we part" means accepting repeated adultery, maybe, but I somehow doubt that someone as progressive as Hillary had trouble conceptually with divorce.

Most of her other positions seem pretty fluid.

ETA: I'm thinking more about this. Even the Catholic Church, which I tend to think of as being really resolved on the issue of marriage and divorce, wouldn't require you to remain with a spouse who repeatedly committed adultery. Now, they wouldn't let you remarry if you separated, but you don't just have to keep putting up with crap.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

How about the "forsaking all others part" for Bill?

If you think "till death do we part" means accepting repeated adultery, maybe, but I somehow doubt that someone as progressive as Hillary had trouble conceptually with divorce.

Most of her other positions seem pretty fluid.

ETA: I'm thinking more about this. Even the Catholic Church, which I tend to think of as being really resolved on the issue of marriage and divorce, wouldn't require you to remain with a spouse who repeatedly committed adultery. Now, they wouldn't let you remarry if you separated, but you don't just have to keep putting up with crap.

The Catholic church also teaches a whole lot about forgiveness - maybe they view that as something important in their marriage. Lots of progressive women still believe marriage is a lifetime commitment, believe it or not. And who knows, maybe they had an open marriage agreement and we didn't know it?

I'm not a Hillary fan, but I just hate the idea of that everyone says she should have divorced him - especially when it comes from the "family values" republicans. Adultery is a very difficult situation in a marriage and I think it is hard to say how one would react without being in that situation.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by GeekyPenguin

The Catholic church also teaches a whole lot about forgiveness - maybe they view that as something important in their marriage. Lots of progressive women still believe marriage is a lifetime commitment, believe it or not. And who knows, maybe they had an open marriage agreement and we didn't know it?

I'm not a Hillary fan, but I just hate the idea of that everyone says she should have divorced him - especially when it comes from the "family values" republicans. Adultery is a very difficult situation in a marriage and I think it is hard to say how one would react without being in that situation.

I disagree that truly progressive women believe that women should stay with a repeatedly philandering spouse. Progressive women don't believe in allowing people to treat women like crap, IMO. Similarly, it's not a reflection of family values to stay with someone who repeatedly violates your marital fidelity. It's a mockery of marriage values, which may be why it bothers "family values" types more than more progressive types.

Certainly, forgiveness is going to be a component of any marriage, and you're right that we have no idea of what their understanding is.

But she isn't stuck with him in some kind of irrevocable way, which was the original point here, I think. Someone pointed out that much of what one poster objected to was beyond Hillary's control. Being married to Bill is not beyond her control.

Certainly, it's up to her, but I think it's fair, knowing what we do know about his serial adultery, to make judgments about her character one way or another about her willingness to stick with him.

He's either an assess or a liability. I don't think anyone thinks that he's incidental to her potential presidency.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by SECdomination

UGAalum94, have you decided who you're turning to now?

I just voted for Romney today. I really really like Huckabee, but I think that Romney wants most of the same things and has a much better chance at the White House.

I can emphatically say that it won't be Huckabee. I'm not a fan, and I don't trust him.

I think my preference is for Romney, but I really do intend to vote in the Democratic primary for Obama to try to keep Hillary off the ticket in the general.

It would probably be better for the Republican candidate is that Hillary be the Democratic candidate, but I can live with the results of a Obama Vs. McCain or Romney election, whatever they may be, more easily.