Hazing creates a sense of unity

[violetpretty]

I think the claim "hazing creates unity" applies to unity within the pledge class, and I'd like to add to that, isolation from the chapter. That would explain why the president didn't know the pledge.

[sasquatch]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

I think the claim "hazing creates unity" applies to unity within the pledge class, and I'd like to add to that, isolation from the chapter. That would explain why the president didn't know the pledge.

Hazing does create isolation from the chapter. That's fine, because despite what most here would have you believe, the pledges are not part of the chapter. I've seen what happens when pledge groups think they are on the same level as actives, and let me tell you, these chapters tend to not have strong brotherhood, in any sense of the word. I think 97% of this board still believes hazing means physically beating pledges or making them drink till they're black out drunk. Yes, that is bad and it does nothing but harm for the pledges, the actives, and Greek life as a whole. Going through a few hardships as a group never hurt anyone.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

Hazing does create isolation from the chapter. That's fine, because despite what most here would have you believe, the pledges are not part of the chapter. I've seen what happens when pledge groups think they are on the same level as actives, and let me tell you, these chapters tend to not have strong brotherhood, in any sense of the word. I think 97% of this board still believes hazing means physically beating pledges or making them drink till they're black out drunk. Yes, that is bad and it does nothing but harm for the pledges, the actives, and Greek life as a whole. Going through a few hardships as a group never hurt anyone.

When I said that hazing unites a pledge class at the expense of isolation from the chapter, I meant that the isolation continues after initiation. Chapters that haze are not "chapters", just a series of isolated pledge classes.

[sasquatch]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

When I said that hazing unites a pledge class at the expense of isolation from the chapter, I meant that the isolation continues after initiation. Chapters that haze are not "chapters", just a series of isolated pledge classes.

And you know this first hand?

Because I sure do have tons of evidence that proves otherwise.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

And you know this first hand?

Because I sure do have tons of evidence that proves otherwise.

Sure, friends in other chapters at my school who have told me that their chapters haze say they feel resentful towards the older actives after initiation, and end up being close only to other members of their pledge class.

I would love to hear how you think hazing unifies a chapter.

[sasquatch]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Sure, friends in other chapters at my school who have told me that their chapters haze say they feel resentful towards the older actives after initiation, and end up being close only to other members of their pledge class.

I would love to hear how you think hazing unifies a chapter.

Well first of all, let's define hazing (for lack of a better word).

I am talking, for example, about having pledges clean up the house early on a Saturday morning in a very short (but not impossible) amount of time. What's the catch? There isn't one. They're not drunk, no one is hitting them, and they don't have to use their toothbrushes. Hell, they don't have HAVE to do it at all, but they understand they will be cut if they don't. Pledging is optional, remember? The thing is, this "hazing" is purposeful and the pledges know that.

No one is in danger and no one is being degraded. If a pledge has a problem with some simple cleaning, then that's not the only problem he has, and he's not someone my chapter wants to be affiliated with. Believe it or not, there will be other times in life when you CHOOSE to do things you don't want to do because you are attracted to the reward. You probably don't want to study for your biology exam, but you want to get into med school, so you study hard and do well. There is no such thing as free lunch, because if there were such a thing, none of us would be in school. The pledge process is not unlike school. You (should have to) work hard to get where you want to be (whether that is being an active member of your GLO or having the job of your dreams).

Now, if you class my example with being beaten half to death with a paddle, then I really do not know what to tell you. If your friends feel resentful towards certain actives, they probably did a lot more than made the pledges clean and I'm just as much against that as the rest of you guys are.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

Well first of all, let's define hazing (for lack of a better word).

I am talking, for example, about having pledges clean up the house early on a Saturday morning in a very short (but not impossible) amount of time. What's the catch? There isn't one. They're not drunk, no one is hitting them, and they don't have to use their toothbrushes. Hell, they don't have HAVE to do it at all, but they understand they will be cut if they don't. Pledging is optional, remember? The thing is, this "hazing" is purposeful and the pledges know that.

No one is in danger and no one is being degraded. If a pledge has a problem with some simple cleaning, then that's not the only problem he has, and he's not someone my chapter wants to be affiliated with. Believe it or not, there will be other times in life when you CHOOSE to do things you don't want to do because you are attracted to the reward. You probably don't want to study for your biology exam, but you want to get into med school, so you study hard and do well. There is no such thing as free lunch, because if there were such a thing, none of us would be in school. The pledge process is not unlike school. You (should have to) work hard to get where you want to be (whether that is being an active member of your GLO or having the job of your dreams).

Now, if you class my example with being beaten half to death with a paddle, then I really do not know what to tell you. If your friends feel resentful towards certain actives, they probably did a lot more than made the pledges clean and I'm just as much against that as the rest of you guys are.

While many if not all agree with you on G C, the National HQs will disagree along with the many states who have enacted laws against hazing brought on by some of the things that you mentioned and still go on today.

Starting a local many years ago, we never thought cleaning common areas of the house and line ups were hazing and that is all we did.

Today that has all changed. We did it on and by ourselves.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

Well first of all, let's define hazing (for lack of a better word).

I am talking, for example, about having pledges clean up the house early on a Saturday morning in a very short (but not impossible) amount of time. What's the catch? There isn't one. They're not drunk, no one is hitting them, and they don't have to use their toothbrushes. Hell, they don't have HAVE to do it at all, but they understand they will be cut if they don't. Pledging is optional, remember? The thing is, this "hazing" is purposeful and the pledges know that.

No one is in danger and no one is being degraded. If a pledge has a problem with some simple cleaning, then that's not the only problem he has, and he's not someone my chapter wants to be affiliated with. Believe it or not, there will be other times in life when you CHOOSE to do things you don't want to do because you are attracted to the reward. You probably don't want to study for your biology exam, but you want to get into med school, so you study hard and do well. There is no such thing as free lunch, because if there were such a thing, none of us would be in school. The pledge process is not unlike school. You (should have to) work hard to get where you want to be (whether that is being an active member of your GLO or having the job of your dreams).

Now, if you class my example with being beaten half to death with a paddle, then I really do not know what to tell you. If your friends feel resentful toward certain actives, they probably did a lot more than made the pledges clean and I'm just as much against that as the rest of you guys are.

Sasquatch;
While I can see that you are a new member of GC (welcome), I do not know how long you may have be lurking or reviewing threads.

I also see that just about all of your postings have been in RM area. I do hope that you took some time to read the threads here.

One of the major flash points we have here is when "we" define hazing.
And from my POV and experience, that in truth makes no difference in the world we live in and operate in.
Why?
Because as GLO's, and for that matter any living or social group on a given campus, have to live and operate under the rules given to us. That is any combination of school, local, State, Federal, and Organizational rules, policies and laws.

And as one can see either by reading the threads here or reading the papers, we get into trouble when we decide what we wish to follow or how we are going to interpret them.

And as we have seen all too often, not all of the "rules" are very well written and are different all over the place.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

And you know this first hand?

Because I sure do have tons of evidence that proves otherwise.

And your evidence is?
And can we find proof in it?