JENA 6

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

shiner...now see...we can agree on that.....as long as the punishment was fair and doled out all around TO ALL GUILTY PARTIES...that would have been ok....but 80 years and tried as and adult was ridiculous.

You're not gonna get any argument from me that the justice has been shadily administered thus far.

My problems are:

-The "leaders" of the black community (I use this term lightly, some black people get pissed at the generalization) blowing this situation up as if a brutal white town is destroying the lives of harmless black students.

-The obvious double standard between this, Duke, the Knoxville killings, etc.

-The obvious double standard between people claiming that laws must be administered fairly, yet this white kid deserved what he got and the young men who brutally beat him shouldn't be punished (based on what you said, this wouldn't apply to you, Daemon).

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

You're not gonna get any argument from me that the justice has been shadily administered thus far.

My problems are:

-The "leaders" of the black community (I use this term lightly, some black people get pissed at the generalization) blowing this situation up as if a brutal white town is destroying the lives of harmless black students.

-The obvious double standard between this, Duke, the Knoxville killings, etc.

-The obvious double standard between people claiming that laws must be administered fairly, yet this white kid deserved what he got and the young men who brutally beat him shouldn't be punished (based on what you said, this wouldn't apply to you, Daemon).

nobody deserves an @sswhupping...well actually some do...but that is another thread.....heh

BUT...the point is...as they say...the punishment must fit the crime and I think what a lot of people are angry about is that one wrong caused another wrong and so forth and everyone is not getting punished for all the wrong doings going on and the ones that are are being punished far too harshly.

I mean...look at it...there is like a whole bunch of things that happened and kept on happening because obviously, there is a problem and Jena is showing us something that a lot of us in the world (and from what I said earlier this is true) know about the US....that justice peeks under that blindfold from time to time and deals out punishments unfairly.

[Velocity_14]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

nobody deserves an @sswhupping...well actually some do...but that is another thread.....heh

BUT...the point is...as they say...the punishment must fit the crime and I think what a lot of people are angry about is that one wrong caused another wrong and so forth and everyone is not getting punished for all the wrong doings going on and the ones that are are being punished far too harshly.

That is EXACTLY the point and that is all there is to it!

[poeticace]

Yes, soror, I wore black today. No rallies though because of work. Did you go to the actual rally in Jena?

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

nobody deserves an @sswhupping...well actually some do...but that is another thread.....heh

BUT...the point is...as they say...the punishment must fit the crime and I think what a lot of people are angry about is that one wrong caused another wrong and so forth and everyone is not getting punished for all the wrong doings going on and the ones that are are being punished far too harshly.

I mean...look at it...there is like a whole bunch of things that happened and kept on happening because obviously, there is a problem and Jena is showing us something that a lot of us in the world (and from what I said earlier this is true) know about the US....that justice peeks under that blindfold from time to time and deals out punishments unfairly.

I'm firmly in the "some people just deserve an ass kicking" camp as well. However, from what I've read most of these kids (white and black) were probably not morally qualified to administer such baseball bat justice.

Let me put it to you this way. Stuff that is happening in Jena today is what keeps people like me from caring. For an analogy...I'm not a huge Bush fan. I'm a Republican, but he pisses me off a lot. However, I'll often battle those who hate him, and refuse to get fired up about their concerns, just because I think they're ridiculous in their attacks. Its similar here. If this wasn't blown up into a sensationalized event with unsavory people suddenly being portrayed as taking the moral high ground...the legal side of me would probably care that something questionable had occurred. But instead I feel that lending my support at this point (although I'm obviously willing to question the justice doled out here), would only strengthen certain elements that I think are absurd.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I'm firmly in the "some people just deserve an ass kicking" camp as well. However, from what I've read most of these kids (white and black) were probably not morally qualified to administer such baseball bat justice.

Let me put it to you this way. Stuff that is happening in Jena today is what keeps people like me from caring. For an analogy...I'm not a huge Bush fan. I'm a Republican, but he pisses me off a lot. However, I'll often battle those who hate him, and refuse to get fired up about their concerns, just because I think they're ridiculous in their attacks. Its similar here. If this wasn't blown up into a sensationalized event with unsavory people suddenly being portrayed as taking the moral high ground...the legal side of me would probably care that something questionable had occurred. But instead I feel that lending my support at this point (although I'm obviously willing to question the justice doled out here), would only strengthen certain elements that I think are absurd.

I can agree with basically all of that.

I don't think I've commented in this thread very much about the LA justice system except to say that I don't know enough to be able to say such harsh things about unequal treatment, etc.

The media reports I've read have been incredibly slanted to one side of the facts. It's hard in light of the fact that I know the information I'm receiving is slanted to be able to judge whether the prosecutors in this case are doing the right thing. I can easily fit the facts of the case to attempted murder in the 2nd degree. Whether or not that's justified? I dunno.

As to the public defender not calling a single witness, it's a fairly common defense tactic, especially when the prosecution has just called a litany of eye witnesses to simply rely on a vigorous cross examination (if that's even possible) and a plea for mercy in closing. Given the facts, I don't think there is any way to put on a really, really strong defense.. so since I wasn't there, I don't really think it's right to say the defense attorney did a bad job.

[Sugar08]

Originally Posted by Kevin

The media reports I've read have been incredibly slanted to one side of the facts. It's hard in light of the fact that I know the information I'm receiving is slanted to be able to judge whether the prosecutors in this case are doing the right thing. I can easily fit the facts of the case to attempted murder in the 2nd degree. Whether or not that's justified? I dunno.

It's not.

Originally Posted by Kevin

As to the public defender not calling a single witness, it's a fairly common defense tactic, especially when the prosecution has just called a litany of eye witnesses to simply rely on a vigorous cross examination (if that's even possible) and a plea for mercy in closing. Given the facts, I don't think there is any way to put on a really, really strong defense.. so since I wasn't there, I don't really think it's right to say the defense attorney did a bad job.

Easy to say that, since you weren't there and you have no experience with public defenders. For those of us with family members who have been through the public "justice" system... well, we know that public defenders often do a shoddy job of defense. Granted, it's not always out of malicious intent, sometimes they are simply overworked and underfunded.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Sugar08

It's not.



Easy to say that, since you weren't there and you have no experience with public defenders. For those of us with family members who have been through the public "justice" system... well, we know that public defenders often do a shoddy job of defense. Granted, it's not always out of malicious intent, sometimes they are simply overworked and underfunded.

Public defenders + Justice = JUST US


and you saying "I don't know" really means you really should have kept your mouth shut and fingers off the keys until you were up to speed with what is happening before you showed your @ss today.

see how easy admitting "I don't know" works?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Sugar08

It's not.

Okay.. and it was reduced to 2nd degree aggravated battery. So I guess the prosecutor agrees with you.

Easy to say that, since you weren't there and you have no experience with public defenders. For those of us with family members who have been through the public "justice" system... well, we know that public defenders often do a shoddy job of defense. Granted, it's not always out of malicious intent, sometimes they are simply overworked and underfunded.

You tell me what a winning defense strategy would be when there are dozens of eye witnesses to the crime?

[Sugar08]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Okay.. and it was reduced to 2nd degree aggravated battery. So I guess the prosecutor agrees with you.

Sure... after thousands of people had to come together to decry this foolishness. If this had slipped under the radar of the public (like 100 other cases do every day) then I'm sure that boy and the others would have been completely SOL.

Originally Posted by Kevin

You tell me what a winning defense strategy would be when there are dozens of eye witnesses to the crime?

I have no idea. I didn't go to law school.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by Sugar08

It's not.



Easy to say that, since you weren't there and you have no experience with public defenders. For those of us with family members who have been through the public "justice" system... well, we know that public defenders often do a shoddy job of defense. Granted, it's not always out of malicious intent, sometimes they are simply overworked and underfunded.

So could you tell us then, what a good strategy would be when there are a couple of hand fulls or eyewitnesses to the crime?

[Sugar08]

Originally Posted by macallan25

So could you tell us then, what a good strategy would be when there are a couple of hand fulls or eyewitnesses to the crime?

Nope. As I said before, I didn't go to law school.

[Marie]

Couple of things...

#1 We really do have to take a step back and realize that the attention and momentum that the Jena case is receiving is really a culmination of many injustices that seem to have occurred within our 'justice system'. While it may be true that rallying/protesting/etc. may be a bit much for ONE questionable case...you have to realize that this is really ONE MORE questionable case in a long line of questionable cases. People are simply fed up with 'some people' receiving punishments for a crime that in many cases would never be passed down to 'other people'. I mean, let's think about this...what these students did was wrong without a doubt. Will sending them to prison for 20 (or even 5 yrs) help them to grow, see the error of their ways, and become a productive and contributing member of our society? Probably not. Many of these students have no prior record or history of disobedience. Arguably to punish them in this way is to throw away their futures. Perhaps what we are seeing here is that some people's future is simply viewed as more valuable than others.

Certainly 'thug' and 'punk' are likely not the 1st words that pop into one's mind when they see the average white or asian young person...even when they are in a negative situation. Since we are referencing the NC Lacrosse case, then certainly some of the same ppl who have condemned the Jena students did not refer to those Lacrosse players as 'thugs' or 'punks' (never once-from the day of the 1st accusation to the day they were cleared). Even if we look to instances where white students have been clearly identified as the guilty party, the focus tends to be more so on addressing the issue and getting them back onto the right path. However, we are not seeing much evidence that this focus in both the victim and the culprit's well-being in highly regarded in all cases. Why is this? Perhaps it is b/c when some individuals look at a troubled black or latino person they say "Well clearly they are just a thug...looking for trouble as usual. Lock them up and throw away the key. It was just a matter of time anyway. This is all they know or can ever know." rather than "Gee, this kid has their whole life ahead of them. There is no indication that they are a chronic behavior problem, so we really need to look at the spirit of the law and whether this was the way that it was intended to be applied. Let’s see how we can teach these individuals a lesson and get them back on track." At least this is what their actions are saying.

We can look at the young man in GA who was tried as a sex offender for having consensual sex with a girl one year younger than him. We can look at the young lady in Texas who was almost sentenced to over 10 years in prison for shoving a teacher. Now let’s add to that six students tried for attempted murder of someone who didn't spend more than three hours in the hospital. I am certainly not saying that these kids don't deserve any punishment. However, I also don't agree with taking their lives and futures and tossing them down the drain.

#2 KDdani - I just wanted to address your comment about not pointing and bringing attention to injustice, but rather simply working to address it. There are many ways of fighting injustice. Sometimes it is through specific actions and efforts to build relationships and create solutions, and other times it is simply through shining a spotlight on the infraction. There are so many people in this world who don't even acknowledge or believe that there is still racism...yet alone a need to solve it. There is a place for simply bring these situations to the attention of others. Additionally, so many offenses are done in the dark and simply go unnoticed. If you think of the three situations noted above, these are all a product of small towns where those individuals would have been hung out to dry had not the national media gotten a hold of the stories. We can even look at the situations in Darfur or Rwanda, or the AIDS crisis in Africa, or the conflict in Israel. Without someone to shine a spotlight on these tragedies, there is very little large scale support generated b/c people simply aren't aware. I'm not saying all of that to argue...I'm just mentioning it b/c I hear comments like those often, and we need to be aware that discussion/protesting/rallying/media has its place.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Marie

Couple of things...

#1 We really do have to take a step back and realize that the attention and momentum that the Jena case is receiving is really a culmination of many injustices that seem to have occurred within our 'justice system'.

Ah... so rather than discuss the actual problem, you rally around a bunch of thugs (yes they are) who beat the snot out of a kid because he talked a little crap. Nice.

Will sending them to prison for 20 (or even 5 yrs) help them to grow, see the error of their ways, and become a productive and contributing member of our society? Probably not.

Rehabilitation is only one of the aims of the penal system. Another is to punish behavior which society condemns. Last I checked it was illegal to blindside someone then repeatedly kick them in the head. You do the crime, you do the time.

Many of these students have no prior record or history of disobedience.

I read that some (if not most or even all but one) have priors.

Arguably to punish them in this way is to throw away their futures. Perhaps what we are seeing here is that some people's future is simply viewed as more valuable than others.

Wrong, they throw away their futures when they decided to break the law. It is not "society" it is their own dumb choice that put them where they are.

Certainly 'thug' and 'punk' are likely not the 1st words that pop into one's mind when they see the average white or asian young person...even when they are in a negative situation.

Speak for yourself.

Since we are referencing the NC Lacrosse case, then certainly some of the same ppl who have condemned the Jena students did not refer to those Lacrosse players as 'thugs' or 'punks' (never once-from the day of the 1st accusation to the day they were cleared).

I believe they were out of control jocks.

-- basically the same thing.

Even if we look to instances where white students have been clearly identified as the guilty party, the focus tends to be more so on addressing the issue and getting them back onto the right path.

Basis?

However, we are not seeing much evidence that this focus in both the victim and the culprit's well-being in highly regarded in all cases. Why is this? Perhaps it is b/c when some individuals look at a troubled black or latino person they say "Well clearly they are just a thug...looking for trouble as usual. Lock them up and throw away the key.

What do you mean by "troubled"?

Now let’s add to that six students tried for attempted murder of someone who didn't spend more than three hours in the hospital.

You need to check your facts. No one was ever "tried" for attempted murder.

[Marie]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Ah... so rather than discuss the actual problem, you rally around a bunch of thugs (yes they are) who beat the snot out of a kid because he talked a little crap. Nice.



Rehabilitation is only one of the aims of the penal system. Another is to punish behavior which society condemns. Last I checked it was illegal to blindside someone then repeatedly kick them in the head. You do the crime, you do the time.



I read that some (if not most or even all but one) have priors.



Wrong, they throw away their futures when they decided to break the law. It is not "society" it is their own dumb choice that put them where they are.



Speak for yourself.



I believe they were out of control jocks.

-- basically the same thing.



Basis?



What do you mean by "troubled"?



You need to check your facts. No one was ever "tried" for attempted murder.

I only respond again to highlight my earlier comment to Kddani. Imagine how difficult it is to work to find solutions to today's problems when faced with individuals who despite your best efforts to be diplomatic, positive, and reasonable only want to argue, judge and create conflict. I certainly hope that we will get to a point where we can speak candidly and acknowledge one another's view point. However, GC seems to be far from that place.