right/wrong

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

The serial comma is an accepted part of english grammar!

Don't take it away!

It is...but most accepted style manuals discourage its use. Each comma is like an "and" so putting a comma in front of "and" is a little redundant. It's my pet peeve because transcriptionist frequently add a comma where I purposely leave one out when I dictate reports. I used to spend hours removing commas from my final reports because I'm crazy!

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

It is...but most accepted style manuals discourage its use. Each comma is like an "and" so putting a comma in front of "and" is a little redundant. It's my pet peeve because transcriptionist frequently add a comma where I purposely leave one out when I dictate reports. I used to spend hours removing commas from my final reports because I'm crazy!

But it can be confusing if you leave it out. I refuse to drop the serial comma!

(And most of the grammar sites I just googled recommend its use.)

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

But it can be confusing if you leave it out. I refuse to drop the serial comma!

(And most of the grammar sites I just googled recommend its use.)

I don't see how it's confusing in the least, but that's my opinion.

[Drolefille]

The streets were filled with spectators, shouting protesters and police.

When there's a modifier, it can be unclear whether the modifier applies to both protesters and police or only protesters.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

The streets were filled with spectators, shouting protesters and police.

When there's a modifier, it can be unclear whether the modifier applies to both protesters and police or only protesters.

That's a poorly written sentence whether or not you include a comma. It should be reworded so that modifiers are used for all or none of the series.

[Drolefille]

Innocent spectators, shouting protesters and police.

Same idea.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just that this is one of the reasons why the serial comma is recommended

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Innocent spectators, shouting protesters and police.

Same idea.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just that this is one of the reasons why the serial comma is recommended

I don't concede that it is recommended...I'm pretty sure that the New York Times style manual does not recommend its use. And that is still a poorly written sentence...think of a modifier for police or leave them all out!

[Drolefille]

Wiki on Serial Commas

There is no consensus among writers or editors on the use of the serial comma. It is nearly standard use in American English, but less common in British English

Arguments for and against

Arguments typically advanced for use of the serial comma by default include:

1. that it better matches the spoken cadence of sentences;[6]
2. that it sometimes reduces ambiguity;[7] and
3. that its use matches practice with other means of separating items in a list (example: when semicolons are used to separate items, a semicolon is consistently included before the last item, even when and or or is present).[8]

Arguments typically advanced for avoidance of the serial comma by default include:

1. that it is against much conventional practice;[9]
2. that it may introduce ambiguity (see examples below); and
3. that it is redundant, since the and or the or serves by itself to mark the logical separation between the final two items.[10]

Many sources, however, are against both automatic use and automatic avoidance of the serial comma, and make recommendations in a more nuanced way (again, see Usage and subsequent sections).

The article also says that many journalism style guides recommend against, possibly for saving space.

The Chicago Manual of Style, Strunk and White's Elements of Style, most authorities on American English and[citation needed] Canadian English and some authorities on British English (for example, Oxford University Press and Fowler's Modern English Usage) recommend the use of the serial comma. Newspaper style guides (such as those published by The New York Times, the Associated Press, The Times newspaper in the United Kingdom, and the Canadian Press) recommend against it, possibly for economy of space.

And finally

The differences of opinion on the use of the serial comma are well characterized by Lynne Truss in her popularized style guide Eats, Shoots & Leaves: "There are people who embrace the Oxford comma, and people who don't, and I'll just say this, never get between these people when drink has been taken."[12]

ETA:They also have better examples of ambiguity in both directions

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Wiki on Serial Commas


The article also says that many journalism style guides recommend against, possibly for saving space.

And finally


ETA:They also have better examples of ambiguity in both directions

So...you get to do what you prefer...which goes back to why it's my pet peeve...I don't like it but apparently my transcriptionists do!

[lovelyivy84]

When I was a kid I put it in, but when I got to like 6th grade they told us to take it out- so I always do it that way. My current company encourages using it, but won't ding you if you don't, lol.

See this is why I hate grammar- the rules just seem arbitrary.

[bluemay414]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

I'm not telling you that. Your university administration and your lawmakers are. I'm not taking a position on whether they're right or wrong.

Your name calling doesn't fix anything. No matter what you say or believe, hazing is ILLEGAL, whether the definitions are right, wrong or indifferent.

I've been around this stuff for years as an undergraduate, an advisor and a division officer. Frankly, some people act like spoiled little wet behind the ears rich kids who, as near as I can tell, have no clue about how much trouble this stuff can cause. How's that for name calling? But this isn't a matter of who can yell the loudest and call people names. It's a matter of survival for not only our chapters, but the Fraternity and Sorority system as we know it.




I went through rush and pledging before this stuff was against the law, and frankly I doubt that you have any idea of what went on in that period. If you think that our brotherhood stronger, you're wrong. That's rhetoric instead of reality.

You can yell "naive" all you want, but some of us have a whole lot of experience that you (global you) don't and we can use that experience to come to logical conclusions that you don't have the background to even consider.

Times have changed, and the stuff that your daddys and I went through have to be memories -- or our chapters will be. I hope that you don't discover that the hard way, given present circumstances.

University administrations and state legislatures have decided that they have to stop hazing because little things lead to bigger ones and sooner or later someone gets badly hurt or killed. Maybe some have over reacted, but that's beside the point. They have the elected or appointed right to do that.

On both sides of the argument, it's the famous, "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" syndrome. Unfortunately, the cliche' is too true all too often.

Insurance companies have decided that because of the rules and laws that have been put in place, they won't insure chapters that don't obey those laws. Suits have been filed against everyone from chapter members, officers, advisors, nationals, house corporation members, university administrators and even parents. Even if you're insured, if you break the law or the rules, the insurance company isn't going to pay damages -- they're going to cancel the policy and run the other way. They have the power to do that, too.

Want to write a few million dollar checks out of the chapter treasury?

When are you all going to figure out that it doesn't matter whether study tables, quizes, scavenger hunts, house cleanups, sleep deprivation, lineups, hell week and the like may not be dangerous? Somebody in authority at the university, the legislature or the GLO have decided that they won't be tolerated. Did I mention that they have the power to do that until a court decides they're wrong?

That doesn't even touch on drugs and underage drinking.

The bottom line is this -- take a look at the threads in this forum. Check out how many chapters have been suspended. See how many university administrations are cracking down. Look at how many nationals have been backed into a corner and forced to crack down on chapters for things they might have overlooked in the past. Consider how insurance rates have skyrocked. More than that, look at how many lawsuits have been filed. Even worse, consider how many people have been hurt or even killed when little things went just one step too far.

Then, when your chapter is gone, consider who is the moron. Who is niave. It's not the ones who enforce or obey the rules, it's the ones who break them.

Don't be an idiot.

..........

[bluemay414]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

I'm not telling you that. Your university administration and your lawmakers are. I'm not taking a position on whether they're right or wrong.

Your name calling doesn't fix anything. No matter what you say or believe, hazing is ILLEGAL, whether the definitions are right, wrong or indifferent.

I've been around this stuff for years as an undergraduate, an advisor and a division officer. Frankly, some people act like spoiled little wet behind the ears rich kids who, as near as I can tell, have no clue about how much trouble this stuff can cause. How's that for name calling? But this isn't a matter of who can yell the loudest and call people names. It's a matter of survival for not only our chapters, but the Fraternity and Sorority system as we know it.

I went through rush and pledging before this stuff was against the law, and frankly I doubt that you have any idea of what went on in that period. If you think that our brotherhood stronger, you're wrong. That's rhetoric instead of reality.

You can yell "naive" all you want, but some of us have a whole lot of experience that you (global you) don't and we can use that experience to come to logical conclusions that you don't have the background to even consider.

Times have changed, and the stuff that your daddys and I went through have to be memories -- or our chapters will be. I hope that you don't discover that the hard way, given present circumstances.

University administrations and state legislatures have decided that they have to stop hazing because little things lead to bigger ones and sooner or later someone gets badly hurt or killed. Maybe some have over reacted, but that's beside the point. They have the elected or appointed right to do that.

On both sides of the argument, it's the famous, "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" syndrome. Unfortunately, the cliche' is too true all too often.

Insurance companies have decided that because of the rules and laws that have been put in place, they won't insure chapters that don't obey those laws. Suits have been filed against everyone from chapter members, officers, advisors, nationals, house corporation members, university administrators and even parents. Even if you're insured, if you break the law or the rules, the insurance company isn't going to pay damages -- they're going to cancel the policy and run the other way. They have the power to do that, too.

Want to write a few million dollar checks out of the chapter treasury?

When are you all going to figure out that it doesn't matter whether study tables, quizes, scavenger hunts, house cleanups, sleep deprivation, lineups, hell week and the like may not be dangerous? Somebody in authority at the university, the legislature or the GLO have decided that they won't be tolerated. Did I mention that they have the power to do that until a court decides they're wrong?

That doesn't even touch on drugs and underage drinking.

The bottom line is this -- take a look at the threads in this forum. Check out how many chapters have been suspended. See how many university administrations are cracking down. Look at how many nationals have been backed into a corner and forced to crack down on chapters for things they might have overlooked in the past. Consider how insurance rates have skyrocked. More than that, look at how many lawsuits have been filed. Even worse, consider how many people have been hurt or even killed when little things went just one step too far.

Then, when your chapter is gone, consider who is the moron. Who is niave. It's not the ones who enforce or obey the rules, it's the ones who break them.

Don't be an idiot.

Blah! Blah! Blah! Still.......far too many STILL get away with it!!! To many people look the other way.....don't want to be uncool....are too chicken to get envolved or are so shallow and desperate to be with the 'cool' crowd that they put up with this crap just so they can say they are in the 'best' chapter. Please.....I am going to throw up. I am so sick of listening to you so called experts say that this is ILLEGAL. Well......either you are so totally clueless or you are guilty and know it is going on but are afraid of your precious chapter being caught and closed and therefore ruining your so called status as being in the so called 'best' chapter.

Mods, can we get an IP check?

[lovelyivy84]

Just thought I'd point out that speaking to a reasonable adult that way will never stimulate a discussion, just cause them to dismiss you entirely. DeltAlum is GROWN. He has had his letters for decades. He has been a staunch anti-hazing advisor on these boards for years. As you would know if you bothered to read the message that you quoted twice.

I doubt he is trying to be one of the cool kids with his post.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

So...you get to do what you prefer...which goes back to why it's my pet peeve...I don't like it but apparently my transcriptionists do!

Depends on the rules you follow, and essentially either are correct as long as your job hasn't defined it specifically and you don't cause ambiguity in the process.