Sex Change and Membership

[Kevin]

I'd think they'd be given the boot. Our rules clearly specify that a member "must be a man." They do not say "must be a man at the time of initiation" or anything like that. It stands to reason that if they are no longer a man, they are also no longer a member.

[Southron]

I take an opposite attitude. In a traditionalist interpretation, the member has merely maimed himself. Despite the claims perhaps now allowed in the legal system, fraternities holding principles rooted in orthodox religious observance could simply ignore the surgery as a mutilation - no different than if the same effects were due an accident. The state can claim the physical change makes a different sex but a fraternity need not accept the alteration as a real change in sex identity.

BTW, some fraternities allow resignation from membership. Mine does not.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Southron

I take an opposite attitude. In a traditionalist interpretation, the member has merely maimed himself. Despite the claims perhaps now allowed in the legal system, fraternities holding principles rooted in orthodox religious observance could simply ignore the surgery as a mutilation - no different than if the same effects were due an accident. The state can claim the physical change makes a different sex but a fraternity need not accept the alteration as a real change in sex identity.

BTW, some fraternities allow resignation from membership. Mine does not.

I'm sure all fraternities have means by which a member can be expelled. If a member ceases to meet the minimum requirements which a member must meet, PC or not, they're gone. For us, there are other automatic expulsion rules (like being convicted of a felony, failing to pay dues, etc.)

My interpretation is a literal one -- if one's gender is physically changed, that person, nor the state, nor anyone else views it as a genital mutilation. They view it as gender reassignment.

Far be it from me to tell your fraternity how to treat this situation. How would mine handle it? If you're not a man, you're not a member. Easy.

I don't think a largely conservative, old, traditional organization such as mine is going to wiggle around with shifting definitions of gender so that we can keep a person on the membership roster after gender reassignment. They'll just be out.

[ealymc]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'm sure all fraternities have means by which a member can be expelled. If a member ceases to meet the minimum requirements which a member must meet, PC or not, they're gone. For us, there are other automatic expulsion rules (like being convicted of a felony, failing to pay dues, etc.)

My interpretation is a literal one -- if one's gender is physically changed, that person, nor the state, nor anyone else views it as a genital mutilation. They view it as gender reassignment.

Far be it from me to tell your fraternity how to treat this situation. How would mine handle it? If you're not a man, you're not a member. Easy.

I don't think a largely conservative, old, traditional organization such as mine is going to wiggle around with shifting definitions of gender so that we can keep a person on the membership roster after gender reassignment. They'll just be out.

Once you aren't an undergrad anymore, your ties to the Fraternity mostly revolve around continuing to support and advancing the goals of the organization. I highly doubt that Sigma Nu Nationals is going to turn away anyone's donorship or foundation support, and I SERIOUSLY doubt steps would be taken to retroactively withdraw membership from an initiated knight a decade or two down the road...

If you look at a list of initiated members throughout the life of a Fraternity, any fraternity in this case, you will see TONS of ambiguous names (i.e. Lindsay, Elisha, Ashley, Shannon, etc.) I honestly don't think the National body as a whole would be weeding through and leaning up the rosters

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ealymc

Once you aren't an undergrad anymore, your ties to the Fraternity mostly revolve around continuing to support and advancing the goals of the organization. I highly doubt that Sigma Nu Nationals is going to turn away anyone's donorship or foundation support, and I SERIOUSLY doubt steps would be taken to retroactively withdraw membership from an initiated knight a decade or two down the road...

If you look at a list of initiated members throughout the life of a Fraternity, any fraternity in this case, you will see TONS of ambiguous names (i.e. Lindsay, Elisha, Ashley, Shannon, etc.) I honestly don't think the National body as a whole would be weeding through and leaning up the rosters

If it were brought to HQ's attention, however, I think it becomes a serious question. Part of our tax status/gender exclusivity is based upon the single-sex nature of our organization.

I can't go into the details, because I really don't know much about that sort of thing just yet.

I do think it'd be bad joo-joo as far as the IRS is concerned, however.

You're absolutely right though, no one is combing through membership rosters.

[ealymc]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I do think it'd be bad joo-joo as far as the IRS is concerned

Joo-joo?

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by ealymc

Joo-joo?

Don't you recognize serious serious tax law when you read it?

[Drolefille]

Except legally it is not a mutilation. Legally they have changed genders. So legally speaking, you have a woman in your fraternity. I don't really think this would hurt anyone's single sex status, but I guess it theoretically could. I don't think the government knows what to do with the transgendered yet.

BTW, for everyone, take this question and reverse it. Born a man, now a woman, wants to join your sorority (as an alumna possibly due to age) What are y'all's opinons on that?

[DSTCHAOS]

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...ty+controversy

The last pages of the Male Sorority Controversy thread included some of this discussion.

[SnuKnight172]

Here is a twist to the situation:

What if a man/woman at the age of 18 decides to have the surgery and become the opposite gender? Can we descriminate at this point if by all legal means Michelle became Michael or if Christopher became Christina? Would your fraternity or sorority let this person rush as their new gender?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by SnuKnight172

Here is a twist to the situation:

What if a man/woman at the age of 18 decides to have the surgery and become the opposite gender? Can we descriminate at this point if by all legal means Michelle became Michael or if Christopher became Christina? Would your fraternity or sorority let this person rush as their new gender?

Absolutely. We can discriminate for any damn reason we want to. It's just that certain reasons for discrimination can't be actually spoken. If your state has a law (and if you're in Cali, it probably does) forbidding discrimination against transsexuals and y'all found this to be unacceptable, simply cut 'em. No explanation need be given.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Absolutely. We can discriminate for any damn reason we want to. It's just that certain reasons for discrimination can't be actually spoken. If your state has a law (and if you're in Cali, it probably does) forbidding discrimination against transsexuals and y'all found this to be unacceptable, simply cut 'em. No explanation need be given.

Maybe you're more guided by Thoreau in terms of your moral obligation to resist laws you think are unjust, but this position seems hypocritical: choose to break the law but just make it impossible to be caught.

I agree that if you never even discuss why someone was disqualified for something, no one will be able to prove that you discriminated, but in this example, it would be clear that you did. And unless you are someone who generally believes that we have no obligation to follow laws we don't agree with, it's odd that you, Mr. Law Guy, would float this idea out there.

[LionTamer]

Oh, man, take one punchy afternoon at work, add a trainwreck recruitment thread and a dash of Austin Powers, and viola!!!! A whole new thread is created!!!!

It's a man, baby!!!

[Munchkin03]

I think that the "type" of person who would undergo a sex change would also become less active in his/her GLO as the years went on--probably well before any operation or treatment. It would probably be one more figment of their "previous life" that they'd be willing to let go of. I doubt that many post-op transsexuals are lining up for AI.

As progressive as we'd like to think our respective groups are, they are still very conservative and bastions of traditional behavior.

That said, if I wanted a man in my sorority, well, I would have joined a co-ed.

[jon1856]

BON-One of my Brothers, after graduation, did have an operation.
I found out while doing a search for my pledge class reunion.
Up until then, I believed that there was only one woman member of SAE.
My Brother is still listed, just under a new name.