Sex Change and Membership

[annabella]

I giggled a little when I saw it in that trainwreck (I'm not assigning blame to either side; I'm just saying the vehicle that was the thread flipped over at some point), but I thought it was in reference to a legacy who had a sex change shortly after birth- a more common procedure.

But if an alum who was in good-standing (but not necessarily hands-on active) had a sex change, would anyone at HQ really be the wiser?

[KSUViolet06]

I consider myself to be a pretty knowledgeable alumna, but I have no idea what happens.

[Xidelt]

On all the shows I've seen on the Discovery channel, if the person goes all the way with the surgery, they legally change status to whatever gender they have transitioned to. So let's say "Ken" transitions to "Barbie". His driver's license will now read "Female". If "Ken" had previously been a member of XYZ fraternity in college, I would think he would forfeit his membership. Otherwise, wouldn't it put XYZ fraternity in danger of legally not being a single-sex organization anymore?

Oh the things you'll respond to at 3:36 am after taking your teenage brother-in-law to the Harry Potter premiere!

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Xidelt

On all the shows I've seen on the Discovery channel, if the person goes all the way with the surgery, they legally change status to whatever gender they have transitioned to. So let's say "Ken" transitions to "Barbie". His driver's license will now read "Female". If "Ken" had previously been a member of XYZ fraternity in college, I would think he would forfeit his membership. Otherwise, wouldn't it put XYZ fraternity in danger of legally not being a single-sex organization anymore?

Oh the things you'll respond to at 3:36 am after taking your teenage brother-in-law to the Harry Potter premiere!

If memory serves me right....Ken doesn't have that far to go to become Barbie...heh

[LatinaAlumna]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

If memory serves me right....Ken doesn't have that far to go to become Barbie...heh

He just needs implants.

[icelandelf]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

If memory serves me right....Ken doesn't have that far to go to become Barbie...heh

he already has mantitty

[Axid angel]

Originally Posted by annabella

I giggled a little when I saw it in that trainwreck (I'm not assigning blame to either side; I'm just saying the vehicle that was the thread flipped over at some point), but I thought it was in reference to a legacy who had a sex change shortly after birth- a more common procedure.

But if an alum who was in good-standing (but not necessarily hands-on active) had a sex change, would anyone at HQ really be the wiser?

could you be refering to a certain thread having to do with a certain retro recruitment story where a certain poster somewhat over reacted?

[Xidelt]

Originally Posted by Axid angel

could you be refering to a certain thread having to do with a certain retro recruitment story where a certain poster somewhat over reacted?

DING DING DING! We have a winner!

[Glitter650]

Originally Posted by annabella

But if an alum who was in good-standing (but not necessarily hands-on active) had a sex change, would anyone at HQ really be the wiser?

Exactly my thought.. I mean technically I'd say the membership would cease. However, I doubt DMV/ Social security administration/ whatever other agencies change your records are going to cross check and call XYZ headquarters and tell them of the operation you had.

We did have a cross dresser come through rush, not once but twice back in the day. It was an interesting situation.

[Kevin]

I'd think they'd be given the boot. Our rules clearly specify that a member "must be a man." They do not say "must be a man at the time of initiation" or anything like that. It stands to reason that if they are no longer a man, they are also no longer a member.

[Southron]

I take an opposite attitude. In a traditionalist interpretation, the member has merely maimed himself. Despite the claims perhaps now allowed in the legal system, fraternities holding principles rooted in orthodox religious observance could simply ignore the surgery as a mutilation - no different than if the same effects were due an accident. The state can claim the physical change makes a different sex but a fraternity need not accept the alteration as a real change in sex identity.

BTW, some fraternities allow resignation from membership. Mine does not.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Southron

I take an opposite attitude. In a traditionalist interpretation, the member has merely maimed himself. Despite the claims perhaps now allowed in the legal system, fraternities holding principles rooted in orthodox religious observance could simply ignore the surgery as a mutilation - no different than if the same effects were due an accident. The state can claim the physical change makes a different sex but a fraternity need not accept the alteration as a real change in sex identity.

BTW, some fraternities allow resignation from membership. Mine does not.

I'm sure all fraternities have means by which a member can be expelled. If a member ceases to meet the minimum requirements which a member must meet, PC or not, they're gone. For us, there are other automatic expulsion rules (like being convicted of a felony, failing to pay dues, etc.)

My interpretation is a literal one -- if one's gender is physically changed, that person, nor the state, nor anyone else views it as a genital mutilation. They view it as gender reassignment.

Far be it from me to tell your fraternity how to treat this situation. How would mine handle it? If you're not a man, you're not a member. Easy.

I don't think a largely conservative, old, traditional organization such as mine is going to wiggle around with shifting definitions of gender so that we can keep a person on the membership roster after gender reassignment. They'll just be out.

[ealymc]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'm sure all fraternities have means by which a member can be expelled. If a member ceases to meet the minimum requirements which a member must meet, PC or not, they're gone. For us, there are other automatic expulsion rules (like being convicted of a felony, failing to pay dues, etc.)

My interpretation is a literal one -- if one's gender is physically changed, that person, nor the state, nor anyone else views it as a genital mutilation. They view it as gender reassignment.

Far be it from me to tell your fraternity how to treat this situation. How would mine handle it? If you're not a man, you're not a member. Easy.

I don't think a largely conservative, old, traditional organization such as mine is going to wiggle around with shifting definitions of gender so that we can keep a person on the membership roster after gender reassignment. They'll just be out.

Once you aren't an undergrad anymore, your ties to the Fraternity mostly revolve around continuing to support and advancing the goals of the organization. I highly doubt that Sigma Nu Nationals is going to turn away anyone's donorship or foundation support, and I SERIOUSLY doubt steps would be taken to retroactively withdraw membership from an initiated knight a decade or two down the road...

If you look at a list of initiated members throughout the life of a Fraternity, any fraternity in this case, you will see TONS of ambiguous names (i.e. Lindsay, Elisha, Ashley, Shannon, etc.) I honestly don't think the National body as a whole would be weeding through and leaning up the rosters

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ealymc

Once you aren't an undergrad anymore, your ties to the Fraternity mostly revolve around continuing to support and advancing the goals of the organization. I highly doubt that Sigma Nu Nationals is going to turn away anyone's donorship or foundation support, and I SERIOUSLY doubt steps would be taken to retroactively withdraw membership from an initiated knight a decade or two down the road...

If you look at a list of initiated members throughout the life of a Fraternity, any fraternity in this case, you will see TONS of ambiguous names (i.e. Lindsay, Elisha, Ashley, Shannon, etc.) I honestly don't think the National body as a whole would be weeding through and leaning up the rosters

If it were brought to HQ's attention, however, I think it becomes a serious question. Part of our tax status/gender exclusivity is based upon the single-sex nature of our organization.

I can't go into the details, because I really don't know much about that sort of thing just yet.

I do think it'd be bad joo-joo as far as the IRS is concerned, however.

You're absolutely right though, no one is combing through membership rosters.

[Drolefille]

Except legally it is not a mutilation. Legally they have changed genders. So legally speaking, you have a woman in your fraternity. I don't really think this would hurt anyone's single sex status, but I guess it theoretically could. I don't think the government knows what to do with the transgendered yet.

BTW, for everyone, take this question and reverse it. Born a man, now a woman, wants to join your sorority (as an alumna possibly due to age) What are y'all's opinons on that?