Too fat to recruit: or, DePauw, the Sequel

[carnation]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

We were small because we attracted some women who were not very committed to sorority life, who dropped out throughout the year. And you know what? The smaller numbers hurt us every year during rush...it was a self-fulfilling prophecy...every year got worse. Even though we had so many beautiful women in our chapter, we got smaller pledge classes because PNMs made snap judgements based on our size. I think size of the chapter has way more to do with it than the size of the women in the chapter.

Oh wow, that first sentence really has something to it. Year after year, I've noticed that the stronger groups tend to know how to pick who'll stay in and who'll drop or transfer. Those groups end up with big senior classes.

[cuteASAbug]

Originally Posted by carnation

Oh wow, that first sentence really has something to it. Year after year, I've noticed that the stronger groups tend to know how to pick who'll stay in and who'll drop or transfer. Those groups end up with big senior classes.

talk about a veiled insult

[carnation]

Nope, not in the least. You look at the composites of various groups at a school and you realize that the stronger groups have managed to keep far more seniors.

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by carnation

Nope, not in the least. You look at the composites of various groups at a school and you realize that the stronger groups have managed to keep far more seniors.

No one can predict life. No one knows who will stay and who will drop or transfer. What you said sounded really bitchy even if you didn't mean it that way.
My pledge class dissolved for various reasons. There are only two active sisters left from it. I had to leave for unforeseen medical issues. They never thought that I'd have to drop because of that when I was given a bid and neither did I. My chapter is strong.

[carnation]

Well guys, anyone can manage to take a statement the wrong way if they want. I guess y'all have.

Again: through 35 years of involvement with the Greek system, I have seen that the stronger groups on any given campus tend to manage to maintain more seniors. They don't seem to have many who get married in the middle of college or transfer or flunk out for whatever reason. This is not a dig on anybody at all. Look at some of the rosters on college websites and compare size of senior classes.

And if you still think I'm trying to insult someone, too bad. You're way too sensitive.

[AlexMack]

Well I guess I'll have to find out where the stronger chapters are hiding their crystal balls and talk to the wholesalers stocking them. That must be the secret to large senior classes when you're handing out bids-knowing the future and all.

[cuteASAbug]

Originally Posted by carnation

They don't seem to have many who get married in the middle of college or transfer or flunk out for whatever reason.

So if a girl marries her boyfriend junior or senior year before he gets sent to the army, then she's from a weak chapter? And since when is getting married the same as flunking out of college?

[NutBrnHair]

Originally Posted by carnation

Well guys, anyone can manage to take a statement the wrong way if they want. I guess y'all have.

Again: through 35 years of involvement with the Greek system, I have seen that the stronger groups on any given campus tend to manage to maintain more seniors. They don't seem to have many who get married in the middle of college or transfer or flunk out for whatever reason. This is not a dig on anybody at all. Look at some of the rosters on college websites and compare size of senior classes.

And if you still think I'm trying to insult someone, too bad. You're way too sensitive.

I'm with you, carnation.

Too often, people get defensive because of their own particular situation.

[adpiucf]

The way I'm understanding it is that carnation is speaking to LONG-TERM RETENTION as a means to measure success. I completely agree.

I feel that we've made it too easy for members to attain inactivity without fully investigating their claims, and that our shortened new member periods are hurting our ability to retain women-- they simply do not have enough time as provisional members to know if this is something they will want 4 years down the road.

Campuses do vary, and members leave the sorority for any number of reasons. But if you recruit a class of 60 freshmen members and 4 years later only 3 remain, that is a problem. Your new members coming in are going to start viewing XYZ as a 2 or 3 year committment, too, and it will breed a culture of poor retention.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by NutBrnHair

I'm with you, carnation.

Too often, people get defensive because of their own particular situation.

And some times people conclude that the beneficial things that happen are a reflection of their own merit rather than any other force in action as well.

ETA: I don't mean to suggest that present members don't contribute to the success of their chapters. Of course they do. But the complete experience of being in a chapter may not be totally within the chapter's control. This is true for the bad chapters that lose members and for the good chapters that keep them. Consider only which socials a chapter might have for an example. How much control does the new pledge class have over which who will have mixers with them? How much change can be made in the average active member period, positive or negative?

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by SECdomination

Finally...females using logic.

If only it was earth-logic.

[NutBrnHair]

Originally Posted by porkfriedrice

No one can predict life. No one knows who will stay and who will drop or transfer...My pledge class dissolved for various reasons. There are only two active sisters left from it. I had to leave for unforeseen medical issues. They never thought that I'd have to drop because of that when I was given a bid and neither did I....

What you CAN do is average the attrition rates over a 3-5 year period and have an idea of how many seniors will probably drop out for one reason or another. It's kinda like figuring relase #s for recruitment.

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by NutBrnHair

What you CAN do is average the attrition rates over a 3-5 year period and have an idea of how many seniors will probably drop out for one reason or another. It's kinda like figuring relase #s for recruitment.

Yeah, I can't get my head around the numbers thing. All I'm saying is, it's not fair to say that stronger chapters know how to pick the right women with dedication to sorority life. There's only so much you can do before handing out a bid. Can they afford it, are their grades good, do they seem normal?
My chapter is pretty big for a northeast sorority. We have a ton of seniors who graduate each year. But occasionally there are bad classes for whatever reason.
Numbers will only get you so far in figuring out who will stay committed.
I wish, with all my heart, that I could go back and have at least one semester as an active. I wish it everyday.
You get what I'm saying though, right? PeppyGPhiB's chapter was small because people dropped, but people dropped because they figured that they could. If no one wants a small chapter to begin with, you're working with what you can. I just don't see how to find a way to make absolutely sure that you're getting fully committed new members who will stay through to their senior year.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by carnation

Nope, not in the least. You look at the composites of various groups at a school and you realize that the stronger groups have managed to keep far more seniors.

Or else the seniors stayed because the groups were stronger and had more to offer. i.e. the social status or connections they got from being an XYZ were something that enabled them to get student govt offices and such. Or as some people have pointed out, local political offices.

If being a Nu Mu alumna gets you an "in" with the local Junior League and you want to be in JL more than life itself, you'll stay in Nu Mu thru senior year...even if you're miserable and hate every minute of it.

I guess it all depends on the defintion of "strong group" you're using.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by carnation

Oh wow, that first sentence really has something to it. Year after year, I've noticed that the stronger groups tend to know how to pick who'll stay in and who'll drop or transfer. Those groups end up with big senior classes.

Well, like everything though, the stronger groups not only can pick them, they can pledge them and keep them because the strong groups seem more desirable in recruitment and may be more fun once your in.

Think about the difference between a connection a girl feels on bid day to the stronger chapter she placed first vs. the second or third chapter she got because although she wasn't crazy about them, she wanted to maximize her options. Is it entirely fair to attribute the strength of her connection to the groups' ability to pick members with certain innate traits?

I think there's a tendency for folks from strong chapters to assume that the strength of their chapter during their active years was mainly attributable to the merits and talents of that group of members. Who wouldn't want to think that: our chapter of this GLO is strong because we're awesome? But the flip side seems to be "and therefore, that weak group is weak because they don't know how to work hard at recruitment or pick new members."

Certainly the present membership mainly contributes to the reputation of the group and really does well or does poorly, but there's another probably either a third or maybe even as much as half of recruiting strength and reputation that happened before those members arrived on the scene.

Surely people who work at the national or international level of the groups must kind of see this, or it really would be as easy as having a couple of consultants help the chapter for a year picking new members with commitment and showing them how to recruit. How often does that really work on a SEC or competitive recruitment campus?

(And think of individual members you've known: it's weird but I can think of chapters where every single woman that I've known whose joined there is amazing and seemed to belong at an even "better" chapter, and yet the overall reputation stays the same. Weird, huh?)