Too fat to recruit: or, DePauw, the Sequel

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by SECdomination

Obviously we have a serious difference of opinion here. A small chapter has to do everything they can to stay open. Once things have gotten this bad, priorities change. It's a question of preserving individual freedoms (the fat girls feelings) or protecting society at large (her chapter).
Either way, I agree that it's totally unacceptable to send her completely away from recruitment. It's not like they can't use her.

You got me there. I guess all I can say is that I'm glad I don't have to deal with NPC rush.

I have been a member of a smaller, "struggling" chapter. However, my chapter was overall one of the best looking chapters on campus when this was happening, and the fraternities loved to mix with us. We were small because we attracted some women who were not very committed to sorority life, who dropped out throughout the year. And you know what? The smaller numbers hurt us every year during rush...it was a self-fulfilling prophecy...every year got worse. Even though we had so many beautiful women in our chapter, we got smaller pledge classes because PNMs made snap judgements based on our size. I think size of the chapter has way more to do with it than the size of the women in the chapter.

I'm glad I didn't go to a SEC school after reading all about how "it's all about looks." It's not like that on every campus, even competitive ones, and I'm glad. I think I'd feel stressed out and uncomfortable if I knew my sisters were THAT obsessed with me looking my best all the time. I mean, would I have to sleep in my makeup just in case I had to get up in the middle of the night? I bet I wouldn't have had the wild and super-casual twice-a-year camping trips with my sisters if I was in a SEC chapter.

I was a rush counselor two times - once as a sophomore when I was pre-med and knew I'd be too busy with classes and studying to spend those late nights in membership selection, and later as a senior when I was on Panhellenic exec. - and it was great. I was SO excited to do it my senior year...it was much more enjoyable than dealing with the decorating, the conversation, etc. It is also a lot of fun to see what all of the other chapters do during recruitment, and to hear the reactions of the PNMs throughout the process. I encourage all NPC women to apply if they're considering it...it's a good opportunity to see recruitment from a more objective standpoint.

[BabyPiNK_FL]

I am on the Panhellenic Council (Pi Chi) and we have Rho Gammas who are the actual recruitment guides and I LOVE it. I actually fell into it by default, but it's an amazing experience and I'm so glad to not be going through recruitment this year...seeing it from the other side makes me soooo happy that I can see the bigger picture and not focus on certain aspects of the process.

[carnation]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

We were small because we attracted some women who were not very committed to sorority life, who dropped out throughout the year. And you know what? The smaller numbers hurt us every year during rush...it was a self-fulfilling prophecy...every year got worse. Even though we had so many beautiful women in our chapter, we got smaller pledge classes because PNMs made snap judgements based on our size. I think size of the chapter has way more to do with it than the size of the women in the chapter.

Oh wow, that first sentence really has something to it. Year after year, I've noticed that the stronger groups tend to know how to pick who'll stay in and who'll drop or transfer. Those groups end up with big senior classes.

[cuteASAbug]

Originally Posted by carnation

Oh wow, that first sentence really has something to it. Year after year, I've noticed that the stronger groups tend to know how to pick who'll stay in and who'll drop or transfer. Those groups end up with big senior classes.

talk about a veiled insult

[carnation]

Nope, not in the least. You look at the composites of various groups at a school and you realize that the stronger groups have managed to keep far more seniors.

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by carnation

Nope, not in the least. You look at the composites of various groups at a school and you realize that the stronger groups have managed to keep far more seniors.

No one can predict life. No one knows who will stay and who will drop or transfer. What you said sounded really bitchy even if you didn't mean it that way.
My pledge class dissolved for various reasons. There are only two active sisters left from it. I had to leave for unforeseen medical issues. They never thought that I'd have to drop because of that when I was given a bid and neither did I. My chapter is strong.

[carnation]

Well guys, anyone can manage to take a statement the wrong way if they want. I guess y'all have.

Again: through 35 years of involvement with the Greek system, I have seen that the stronger groups on any given campus tend to manage to maintain more seniors. They don't seem to have many who get married in the middle of college or transfer or flunk out for whatever reason. This is not a dig on anybody at all. Look at some of the rosters on college websites and compare size of senior classes.

And if you still think I'm trying to insult someone, too bad. You're way too sensitive.

[AlexMack]

Well I guess I'll have to find out where the stronger chapters are hiding their crystal balls and talk to the wholesalers stocking them. That must be the secret to large senior classes when you're handing out bids-knowing the future and all.

[cuteASAbug]

Originally Posted by carnation

They don't seem to have many who get married in the middle of college or transfer or flunk out for whatever reason.

So if a girl marries her boyfriend junior or senior year before he gets sent to the army, then she's from a weak chapter? And since when is getting married the same as flunking out of college?

[NutBrnHair]

Originally Posted by carnation

Well guys, anyone can manage to take a statement the wrong way if they want. I guess y'all have.

Again: through 35 years of involvement with the Greek system, I have seen that the stronger groups on any given campus tend to manage to maintain more seniors. They don't seem to have many who get married in the middle of college or transfer or flunk out for whatever reason. This is not a dig on anybody at all. Look at some of the rosters on college websites and compare size of senior classes.

And if you still think I'm trying to insult someone, too bad. You're way too sensitive.

I'm with you, carnation.

Too often, people get defensive because of their own particular situation.

[NutBrnHair]

Originally Posted by porkfriedrice

No one can predict life. No one knows who will stay and who will drop or transfer...My pledge class dissolved for various reasons. There are only two active sisters left from it. I had to leave for unforeseen medical issues. They never thought that I'd have to drop because of that when I was given a bid and neither did I....

What you CAN do is average the attrition rates over a 3-5 year period and have an idea of how many seniors will probably drop out for one reason or another. It's kinda like figuring relase #s for recruitment.

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by NutBrnHair

What you CAN do is average the attrition rates over a 3-5 year period and have an idea of how many seniors will probably drop out for one reason or another. It's kinda like figuring relase #s for recruitment.

Yeah, I can't get my head around the numbers thing. All I'm saying is, it's not fair to say that stronger chapters know how to pick the right women with dedication to sorority life. There's only so much you can do before handing out a bid. Can they afford it, are their grades good, do they seem normal?
My chapter is pretty big for a northeast sorority. We have a ton of seniors who graduate each year. But occasionally there are bad classes for whatever reason.
Numbers will only get you so far in figuring out who will stay committed.
I wish, with all my heart, that I could go back and have at least one semester as an active. I wish it everyday.
You get what I'm saying though, right? PeppyGPhiB's chapter was small because people dropped, but people dropped because they figured that they could. If no one wants a small chapter to begin with, you're working with what you can. I just don't see how to find a way to make absolutely sure that you're getting fully committed new members who will stay through to their senior year.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by carnation

Nope, not in the least. You look at the composites of various groups at a school and you realize that the stronger groups have managed to keep far more seniors.

Or else the seniors stayed because the groups were stronger and had more to offer. i.e. the social status or connections they got from being an XYZ were something that enabled them to get student govt offices and such. Or as some people have pointed out, local political offices.

If being a Nu Mu alumna gets you an "in" with the local Junior League and you want to be in JL more than life itself, you'll stay in Nu Mu thru senior year...even if you're miserable and hate every minute of it.

I guess it all depends on the defintion of "strong group" you're using.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by carnation

Oh wow, that first sentence really has something to it. Year after year, I've noticed that the stronger groups tend to know how to pick who'll stay in and who'll drop or transfer. Those groups end up with big senior classes.

Well, like everything though, the stronger groups not only can pick them, they can pledge them and keep them because the strong groups seem more desirable in recruitment and may be more fun once your in.

Think about the difference between a connection a girl feels on bid day to the stronger chapter she placed first vs. the second or third chapter she got because although she wasn't crazy about them, she wanted to maximize her options. Is it entirely fair to attribute the strength of her connection to the groups' ability to pick members with certain innate traits?

I think there's a tendency for folks from strong chapters to assume that the strength of their chapter during their active years was mainly attributable to the merits and talents of that group of members. Who wouldn't want to think that: our chapter of this GLO is strong because we're awesome? But the flip side seems to be "and therefore, that weak group is weak because they don't know how to work hard at recruitment or pick new members."

Certainly the present membership mainly contributes to the reputation of the group and really does well or does poorly, but there's another probably either a third or maybe even as much as half of recruiting strength and reputation that happened before those members arrived on the scene.

Surely people who work at the national or international level of the groups must kind of see this, or it really would be as easy as having a couple of consultants help the chapter for a year picking new members with commitment and showing them how to recruit. How often does that really work on a SEC or competitive recruitment campus?

(And think of individual members you've known: it's weird but I can think of chapters where every single woman that I've known whose joined there is amazing and seemed to belong at an even "better" chapter, and yet the overall reputation stays the same. Weird, huh?)

[SWTXBelle]

Remember, with most PNMs we are dealing with 17 and 18 year olds who are away from home and in a very unfamiliar enviornment. It is no wonder the "herd mentality" holds such sway. I would not suggest they are shallow, but if you are in unfamiliar waters you tend to grasp at what you think you understand. So, a larger chapter about whom everyone has great things to say would be far more appealing than a smaller chapter which has "scuttlebutt" about their "problems". As we've seen in so many of the retro recruitment threads, tent talk and peer pressure can really mess up your mind as you go through recruitment.
My chapter graduated a very large number of seniors a year before I pledged - and our numbers could never bounce back, and we ended up in the death spiral. We had beautiful, smart girls - sparkling personalities, campus leaders - but not enough of them. We also were less concerned with appearance, to tell the truth. We had more girls who were not a size 2, and we also had more hispanic members. If we had more members overall, I don't think this would have been a problem. I don't know what the solution is. I'm proud of the fact we were not superficial, and that we pledged girls who weren't Barbie, but who had a great deal more to offer. I also wish that we could have recruited the numbers we needed to remain viable on campus.
I too am upset at the cattiness and shallowness sometimes shown by other GLOs when a chapter is struggling. There is no excuse for it. Every GLO should realize that the system is only as strong as its weakest link - and that every chapter which has to close is bad for the system. It's not an end-sum game. The more chapters there are, the greater possability for true diversity, and the more likely PNMs are to find a home. More happy Greeks means a larger system, which is good for everyone.
I'm frustrated by my inability to come up with a solution. Sisterly love comes in many shapes, colors and sizes. Also, a chapter is truly what the sisters make of it. We need an implant for PNMs that would help them realize that.