Alpha Phi dies of alcohol poisioning at SDSU

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by 33girl

To say in effect "well, if her sorority would have been smart enough to terminate her, they wouldn't look so bad"? How on EARTH do you justify that in any way? YOU DON'T. Death is not a teachable moment and people who try to make it one are absolutely revolting.

I just hope none of her friends, family or chapter sisters read this thread. It's been full of innuendo, gossip and misplaced blame from beginning to end.

It seems to me that the death of someone that the audience doesn't know is frequently used as a teachable moment. Now, it's possible that anti-drunk driving and anti-drug use ads are revolting to you, but it seems to be a fairly accepted thing in our culture, going back to horrible drivers education videos back in the day.

I agree that Kevin's post would seem harsh to members of her group and her family, (and personally, I was a little troubled my the "group should cut it's losses" element because I like to think the bond is a little deeper than that) but I doubt he really had them in mind as his audience, seeing the topic of the forum and all.

From the perspective of the group, if you have a sister or brother you know is using drugs, and the sister or brother isn't receptive to quitting or treatment, it does create an extra liability for the group. I think a lot of us think in terms of different categories of users, like recreation user vs. addict, but if someone ODs in the house, like seemed to happen at SMU this year, or has a bad outcome in connection to an GLO event, which seems to fill this forum, it's likely going to be really bad for the group. (It doesn't really matter how frequently or if they've used in the past.) That's part of what the forum is all about.

It doesn't make this young woman's death less tragic for her immediate family, but it's a real example of the risk management issues groups face, and it seems a little odd to come in and bust on this particular thread.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

I agree that Kevin's post would seem harsh to members of her group and her family, (and personally, I was a little troubled my the "group should cut it's losses" element because I like to think the bond is a little deeper than that) but I doubt he really had them in mind as his audience, seeing the topic of the forum and all.

From the perspective of the group, if you have a sister or brother you know is using drugs, and the sister or brother isn't receptive to quitting or treatment, it does create an extra liability for the group.

The point is that there was NO proof (none has been offered so far) that she was a regular or even casual cocaine user.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by 33girl

The point is that there was NO proof (none has been offered so far) that she was a regular or even casual cocaine user.

If this poor girl used cocaine the night she died, and died from cocaine use, doesn't that make her a casual user?

And let me clarify, even if she used it for the first time that evening, doesn't that equal casual use?

[cuteASAbug]

If she used it for the first time the night she died, does that make her a casual user?

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

If this poor girl used cocaine the night she died, and died from cocaine use, doesn't that make her a casual user?

And let me clarify, even if she used it for the first time that evening, doesn't that equal casual use?

No........someone that does a little blow every now and then on the weekends is a casual user in my mind. Hence the word "casual".

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by 33girl

The point is that there was NO proof (none has been offered so far) that she was a regular or even casual cocaine user.

I can see how you would think it diminished her memory to talk about her so statistically, but what do you suppose the chances really are that A) this was her first time using B) the chapter was unaware that any members were using drugs C) that the people who were with her at the end of the night had no idea she was "wasted"?

If the changes of A, B or C are anything other than 100%, then the possibility exists that someone could have intervened in this case and that other people can learn that even though it may make you seem like a dork, keeping your friends from using or getting them help if they do might save their lives.

I always want that to be the focus of risk management, rather than dollar value liability that we ultimately get hung up on. You want to keep people from killing themselves or others; the financial risk is very real and sometimes the only thing to convince more libertarian members, but first, take care of your sisters, brothers, friends, and self so that nobody dies before he or she has to.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

I can see how you would think it diminished her memory to talk about her so statistically, but what do you suppose the chances really are that A) this was her first time using B) the chapter was unaware that any members were using drugs C) that the people who were with her at the end of the night had no idea she was "wasted"?

If the changes of A, B or C are anything other than 100%, then the possibility exists that someone could have intervened in this case and that other people can learn that even though it may make you seem like a dork, keeping your friends from using or getting them help if they do might save their lives.

I always want that to be the focus of risk management, rather than dollar value liability that we ultimately get hung up on. You want to keep people from killing themselves or others; the financial risk is very real and sometimes the only thing to convince more libertarian members, but first, take care of your sisters, brothers, and friends, and self so that you don't die before you have to.

Amen.

This is the risk management forum, not the honor the memories of the dead people who did stupid things forum. If this is common at SDSU, then perhaps national organizations might want to start considering closing chapters. The more common the knowledge that drugs like cocaine are part of the greek party scene out there, the more likely this sort of thing is to come back on an organization.

[cuteASAbug]

Alphagamuga, do you know what members of your chapter smoke weed, drop e, snort, etc.? Do you know which ones smoke? Do you know which ones drink underage? Do you know when each one of them is doing each one of those things? Do you really think that it's possible for girls in a sorority, especially in a medium-large sized chapter to know this information about each of their members? I completely agree with you that risk management should be about preventing deaths, but sometimes there is only so much information that you can know about a member, especially if she goes out of her way to hide things from the chapter, and I don't know about you, but I joined a sorority to have 40 sisters, not 40 policemen.

[Drolefille]

IMO, Risk Management isn't just about covering our asses. Yes, this chapter could potentially have dropped her and saved themselves this news coverage. That would NOT have helped the member.

And seeing how SDSU is well known for their drug and alcohol problems, Risk Management isn't something to address with one individual member; it sounds like the chapters, and more importantly the university need to be getting involved.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

IMO, Risk Management isn't just about covering our asses. Yes, this chapter could potentially have dropped her and saved themselves this news coverage. That would NOT have helped the member.

And seeing how SDSU is well known for their drug and alcohol problems, Risk Management isn't something to address with one individual member; it sounds like the chapters, and more importantly the university need to be getting involved.

I agree completely about the first part, and I don't know anything about SDSU, but what you've said would seem to be true almost everyplace.

[bejazd]

Yes, SDSU has a reputation for being a party school. But these kinds of issues- i.e. binge drinking and recreational drug use can start in middle school! Keep in mind that SDSU has 30K students. It's a small city.
You can go there and get a great education and go off and lead a great life, or you can party until you flunk out and go bag groceries. I've seen people do both!

I hope what the greek community does with this is to develop more alternative social activities so new members can get to their first formal and not feel like it wouldn't be a formal without alcohol and..whatever. But it's a tough sell to get young people to realize they can have a great social life and be responsible. Grad Nite at my son's HS was cancelled this year because not enough kids signed up...and the ASB leadership set the tone when they announced they would not go because it was alcohol free. How sad is that?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

I agree completely about the first part, and I don't know anything about SDSU, but what you've said would seem to be true almost everyplace.

I only know what I've heard on GC and everyone SDSU student has said they're a drug and party school. I mention it because on my campus I'm sure there were drugs, but my chapter would have dealt with it if a member had had problems. (And no, booting her out would not be the first reaction) But if it's so pervasive, there's no way that the chapter, made of members possibly just as into the drugs, will deal with the situation.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by cuteASAbug

Alphagamuga, do you know what members of your chapter smoke weed, drop e, snort, etc.? Do you know which ones smoke? Do you know which ones drink underage? Do you know when each one of them is doing each one of those things? Do you really think that it's possible for girls in a sorority, especially in a medium-large sized chapter to know this information about each of their members? I completely agree with you that risk management should be about preventing deaths, but sometimes there is only so much information that you can know about a member, especially if she goes out of her way to hide things from the chapter, and I don't know about you, but I joined a sorority to have 40 sisters, not 40 policemen.

Nobody wants a policeman around until you're about to be the victim a crime and then you're probably really happy to see him. I think the same is drug for risk management. It's troublesome and invasive until a member dies or is seriously injured in a manner related to risk management, and then everybody wishes they'd done something differently.

I'm sure I wouldn't have appreciated a lot of drug and alcohol related investigations in my chapter when I was in college,* and I'm sure my perspective is different because I'm long out of college and am almost realistically old enough to have a kid in college.

But it seems to me that we do know when people are doing dangerous stuff, maybe not every sister in a chapters if the chapter is really big, but if someone has a problem it can be obvious at events. It will often be visible to a person's roommates or their friends. I think it's pretty rare that people so effectively hide their drug use or alcohol abuse that no one in the chapter knows, even without an investigation.

I don't think the choice is police state vs. free for all.

*although I don't really think drugs were a big problem in our chapter. It doesn't really matter though. I know we had underage drinking and people who made bad decisions about drinking and driving (or more exactly riding with others who had been drinking) when they were out not at GLO events.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by cuteASAbug

Alphagamuga, do you know what members of your chapter smoke weed, drop e, snort, etc.? Do you know which ones smoke? Do you know which ones drink underage? Do you know when each one of them is doing each one of those things? Do you really think that it's possible for girls in a sorority, especially in a medium-large sized chapter to know this information about each of their members? I completely agree with you that risk management should be about preventing deaths, but sometimes there is only so much information that you can know about a member, especially if she goes out of her way to hide things from the chapter, and I don't know about you, but I joined a sorority to have 40 sisters, not 40 policemen.

Back in the day, my answer to your questions would have been yes and that would have been accurate to about 90%.