Hazing dilemma...

[tallgreekalum]

[QUOTE=macallan25;1454471]Leave the chapters alone and deal with outstanding/more serious happenings. To me, this is what it seems like goes on at most big schools/chapters in the South. Maybe i'm forgetting if it has happened, but it just doesn't seem like big powerful chapters are going to get shut down over anything that is not pretty damn serious.

The question becomes what is "serious". (Inter)nationals ARE cutting loose chapters over rules violations. Phi Delt has closed down a fair number of chapters and several others have gone local over the dry house issue. Kappa Sig shut down Ole Miss and others over dry house. If they'll do it over dry house, they'll certainly do it over hazing. Your own (you are an SAE?) Duke Chapter is now an AD Chapter because of nationals threat to shut down what was a big, old chapter at the top of it's game. Sigma Nu at Vandy over hazing. The list goes on. That's ok, AD will pick up the pieces Our realistic policies are attracting more ex-national chapter locals into the fold.

[macallan25]

[QUOTE=tallgreekalum;1454547]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Leave the chapters alone and deal with outstanding/more serious happenings. To me, this is what it seems like goes on at most big schools/chapters in the South. Maybe i'm forgetting if it has happened, but it just doesn't seem like big powerful chapters are going to get shut down over anything that is not pretty damn serious.

The question becomes what is "serious". (Inter)nationals ARE cutting loose chapters over rules violations. Phi Delt has closed down a fair number of chapters and several others have gone local over the dry house issue. Kappa Sig shut down Ole Miss and others over dry house. If they'll do it over dry house, they'll certainly do it over hazing. Your own (you are an SAE?) Duke Chapter is now an AD Chapter because of nationals threat to shut down what was a big, old chapter at the top of it's game. Sigma Nu at Vandy over hazing. The list goes on. That's ok, AD will pick up the pieces Our realistic policies are attracting more ex-national chapter locals into the fold.

Yeah, I realize they ARE shutting down chapters.....but keep in mind the type of chapters I was talking about. When they start shutting down chapters like SAE at Alabama or Phi Delt at Ole Miss.......then get back to me. There are plenty of chapters that I think most would agree are....above the law....so to speak.

[banditone]

[quote=macallan25;1454922]

Originally Posted by tallgreekalum

Yeah, I realize they ARE shutting down chapters.....but keep in mind the type of chapters I was talking about. When they start shutting down chapters like SAE at Alabama or Phi Delt at Ole Miss.......then get back to me. There are plenty of chapters that I think most would agree are....above the law....so to speak.

Man, I used to agree with you.... I seriously thought that Sigma Nu at the following were way above the law & untouchable: Kansas, Arkansas, Arizona State, Washington State, LSU, Colorado State, Vanderbilt, and WAY back in the day - Texas.

However, our nationals has shown that they don't care how strong you are; you are subject to all the same regulations as even the smallest and newest chapter.

[Kevin]

Ep Ep was never shut down... at least not that I know of.

[banditone]

I'm almost positive they were. For at least a year because of a monster fight or something. I'll look for the article and PM it to you.

[edit] removing Okie State as I don't see where nationals ever closed them down.

[Elephant Walk]

[QUOTE=banditone;1455008]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Arkansas[/COLOR]

However, our nationals has shown that they don't care how strong you are; you are subject to all the same regulations as even the smallest and newest chapter.

I'd rather not argue with you over this, but Arkansas Sigma Nu was never a top chapter... it was upper 2nd at best.

[EE-BO]

A tricky question Kevin.

At some level, IHQs have to set a tone. Not only for legal reasons but because any person who associates with any organization in life must adhere to certain standards that preserve the integrity of that organization.

The question is, where do you draw the line?

Of course IHQ has to publish and adhere to the legal requirements for alcohol possession and consumption. That is a no-brainer.

But should there be dry houses? I don't think so. At some point in life, every man has to learn to make his own decisions and suffer the consequences if a bad decision has bad ramifications.

If an underage active member of a fraternity drinks in the house and assaults a female guest- he puts himself in the same position as anyone else who does the same in any setting. Whether he gets in trouble will depend on whether the incident is reported and pursued. At this point it becomes a matter for the legal system- and the fraternity chapter and IHQ would be wise to disassociate someone found guilty just as an on-campus dorm or employer would do in the same situation.

But when you get into the issue of having a dry house to prevent that kind of thing from happening, suddenly you are babysitting- and in the process you are telling every member that you do not trust them. And the more research I do, the more history shows that babysitting accomplishes little if anything.

People have to start growing up at some point. Ideally it should start well before college, but college is certainly no time to revert back to parenting.

The very real fact is that people under 21 drink. Period. And if society really wanted to end that- a way could be found. But we don't- we seek merely to curb it and at least promote a strong sense of discretion about it. Whatever individual people tell you, this is the collective message of society.

Hazing is no different in my view.

Some GLOs have attempted to eliminate it completely- and they are having about as much luck as the GLOs trying to go dry.

An IHQ must have and enforce a hazing policy that reflects the law- but to go further is just creating a nightmare for everyone.

I will not name names (it is not my GLO) but I am personally aware of (meaning I am reporting the facts) a situation where a very strong GLO at a major school was completely shut down because of a political conflict.

Simply put, the chapter did engage in some hazing activities which were not illegal in the state of Texas, but were in violation of IHQ policy. The chapter also had a very clean record- no deaths, injuries or reported incidents.

Two members had a bitter battle for presidency of the chapter that was about personal interests and the general direction of the chapter, and the loser was so upset that he turned his chapter in to IHQ for hazing.

None of the pledges were ever interviewed, and to my knowledge there were few- if any- actives who were in support of such a move.

IHQ came crashing in with a live-in advisor who turned the place upside down.

So, over a 4 week period almost the entire chapter quit. 80% of the guys just left- and they moved out of the house too leaving the alumni who bought it holding the bag for upkeep and property taxes.

So the alumni sold the house. And that chapter has NEVER recovered. They are still around- but they have never come close to what they had before.

And it is all because IHQ set up a mindset of control and fear- and then allowed one disgruntled person to make personal use of that to the ruination of the chapter and a financial disaster for alumni (and how smart is it to alienate a group of alumni who have the money and dedication to pay for a $1 million+ house?)

What a waste. What a complete waste.

But that is what happens when you get beyond your basic legal responsibilities to manage an organization to help young men mature.

What you create is a situation where the guys hide what they do- and then someday someone will come along who will reveal what is going on for personal reasons and then it all comes crashing down.

Advisors and IHQs don't have time to be there every second. Most violations come to light because they are reported- not because they are discovered. That is a key point since it speaks to impracticability of such an approach and also to the fact that enforcement will be reactive and cannot take into account the reasons for a chapter being turned in.

This does not create a better brotherhood. It instead creates mistrust and secretive behavior. My own GLO has a chapter with this very issue- and they are constantly being hammered even though they are about the most saintly and sin-free bunch of guys you can imagine.

JMHO.

[EE-BO]

Kevin- as usual I managed to write an entire page without answering the original question.

I choose option D)- create a realistic hazing policy with the approach I discuss above and then enforce it strictly with no favoritism. Basically- make it have to be a very bad issue for there to be sanctions, and then impose them consistently.

One other little thing- when an IHQ gets all skittish and creates unrealistic policies and caves in to public and media pressure without due care, they are basically conceding that those who hate GLOs are right to think we should be gone.

"I'm sorry" is maybe the most overused phrase in modern times. An apology and punishment is warranted when it is deserved, but overused it becomes the key weapon for your idealogical enemy.

[Tom Earp]

With todays fine line of hazing the IHQ for all of us are very sensative to any kind of event. The laws of States is making it even more difficlut to know what hazing is made up of.

GLOs are microcosisms of any group or peoples. Even with being adjudged adults by law doesn't make it so for some 18 year olds. While the young when leaving the nest of the parents, they wish to spread thier wings and in many cases error in their decissions.

Then at that point, the older active members are supposed to keep an eye on any and all situations, but sometimes, egos take control.

Knowing a few of the situations that have been mentioned egos can run high even within Alumni too. While this may not have anything to do with running the Active Chapter, it goes to having control of the House building. This too can harm a chapter with the in fighting and with holding of funds for rerbushing the property. This then can now include the city ordinances for fire supression systems and fire codes.

It therefore becomes a three pronged problem with the three factions: IHQ, Active Chapter, and Alumni to work together.

SN as an example at KU, Ks. was suspended after two hazing accidents and have now returned to campus.

To sum it up, never say never when it comes to a Chapter being de-chartered, it can happen whether anyone beleives it or not. The reasons can vary but when it happens, do not be surprised. Even Alums can get upset and back away from a major situation and hope that if the Chapter is de-chartered, they can come back and be even bigger and better.

EE-BO and Kevin have a good handle of the situation as they have been there and seen what can happen.