Results of 2006 APO Convention.

[arvid1978]

Originally Posted by Empress0105

sit will be a cold day in hell before these hbcu chapters willingly allow a chic to come into their orgs....that's just being honest....they might even initiate her, but to actually include her in the "brother" aspect, like hangin out at the frat house and hopping at parties...you know, the social things that seperate a fraternity from circle k or your local food bank volunteers....i don't see it happening. and i say that for ALL chapters of co ed orgs at HBCU that are currently single gender but are indirectly being forced to be co-ed....i mean Tenn State is co-ed, but they also had to reactivate....same thing with apo here at howard....but FAMU??? TUSKEGEE??? man...i just don't see it...

Um, there is no "frat house" for any APO member to hang out at, that is prohibited by the National Bylaws. If they are hanging out at an APO Frat House, they've got a whole other set of issues to deal with.

Every chapter chartered before 1976 was chartered as an all-male chapter, and right now we have less than 20 holdouts. Lots of chapters have been reactivated at least once. Hell, we don't even have our Alpha chapter active, and it's been reactivated more than once. The fact that TN State is a re-charter doesn't mean anything.

I'm certain there was a time when people said APO wouldn't work at an HBCU because it was founded by whites and has Scouting at its core. Clearly, that isn't the case. Times are changing, and APO is choosing to lead the way rather than stick their heads in the sand. How many other GLO's have so many chapters on both HBCU campuses and non-HBCU campuses? I think that speaks volumes about our commitment to diversity and how it doesn't matter if you're black, white, yellow, red, purple, green, male, female or somewhere in between....you are all welcome to Be A Leader, Be A Friend and Be Of Service.

i think it's great you want to support your national officers in their decision, but i think that in this world today, how man chics aren't in certain chapters should be the least of these white ladies issues...

This was not a decision of the national officers, this was a decision upheld by the active (student) members of Alpha Phi Omega, as was the original decision to go co-ed in 1976. The national officers make recommendations, but it is ultimately up to the students.

I'm disgusted that you're playing the race card on this matter. Absolutely disgusted. Opinions along these lines only serve to further the racial divide and foster a "black people vs. everybody else" mentality. This has nothing to do with race, this is a matter of gender equity. (FWIW, I am a white male advisor to a predominately black female chapter on a co-ed public university campus, so I'm not exactly ignorant about these issues...) Do you think the predominately white all-male chapters are welcoming this with open arms and this is a plight to force co-ed APO at HBCU's? Our Delta chapter is all-male, and last time I checked my greek alphabet, Delta (Auburn) and Gamma Lambda (Clemson) are a hell of a lot older than Pi Zeta (Tuskegee) or Kappa Delta (FAMU) or Chi Nu (Grambling). APO chapters at HBCU's do not own the market on having to adapt following this re-affirmation of our membership policy.

we can agree to disagree...but i still think it's a retarded decision that whether we want to face it or not soror, WILL eventually affect us.

So it's a retarded decision for us to actually enforce our policies and bylaws? Because that is what the decision was about. Don't make it more than it needs to be.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by arvid1978

Our Delta chapter is all-male, and last time I checked my greek alphabet, Delta (Auburn) and Gamma Lambda (Clemson) are a hell of a lot older than Pi Zeta (Tuskegee) or Kappa Delta (FAMU) or Chi Nu (Grambling). APO chapters at HBCU's do not own the market on having to adapt following this re-affirmation of our membership policy.

Yes, but they do hold a significant part of the market of having to be pushed. As far as I know, *one* chapter at an HBCU went co-ed without being forced to, Prairie View, and when they did so (Spring 2006) the writing was already on the wall. It may not be racial, but it *is* cultural. Whether or not there was more pressure from alumni and actives to stay all-male, there would be from the rest of the campus. At a campus like University of Maine-Orono, the only student group that is likely to *notice* Alpha Phi Omega going co-ed is Gamma Sigma Sigma. At an HBCU, the reaction is likely to be considerably wider. I would expect these same pressures to make the Gamma Sigma Sigma chapters at HBCUs less likely to have male sisters.

Originally Posted by arvid1978

I'm certain there was a time when people said APO wouldn't work at an HBCU because it was founded by whites and has Scouting at its core. Clearly, that isn't the case.

I'd be interested as to why you think that. I've looked back through the Torch and Trefoils from 1945 and 1946 and don't see any sign that they were treated any differently. When Johnson C. Smith University chartered it was sort of unique for the area, it was a relatively small school in the Altantic Southeast. The Southeast didn't have the Professional Scouters or APO staffers to spread the word that the Northeast (BSA HQ among others) or the Midwest (H. Roe Bartle (2nd APO president) did. The count of chapters of the States in the area: Maryland 1 (UMCP), Virginia 1 (UVA), North Carolina 1 (UNC), South Carolina 1 (Clemson), Georgia 4 (UGA, GaTech, Mercer & Emory), Tennessee None, Florida 2 (UFl, UMiami), Alabama 2 (Auburn, Howard C.).

I'm including the announcement of the chartering of JCSU.



Yes, the word "Negro" is used. It was also written by a member of the JCSU chartering group *and* would have been the standard positive term at the time.

Also, in regards to the NPHC on campus, we did get there after the eight GLOS then in the NPHC did, but not by much. As best as I can tell the range of when they came on campus was 1923(AphiA)-1943(DST) and we came on in 1947.

[gamma_girl52]

Wow. I don't even know where to start.

Originally Posted by Empress0105

i think we are either being too polite on this forum, or we as a whole are just simply in denial or are treating this issue like the elephant in the room.....no, i don't care how many women, men or shims are in alpha phi omega, but i DO think that MY sorority needs to take a look at how this could potentially affect us.

Soror, I would like to know how this decision is going to affect us as a whole, I really do. Because I want to take a look at it, but give me something to look at. No disrespect or hostility soror, maybe I am missing something. I don't think I'm in denial about anything because quite frankly, there's nothing to be in denial about. I think the sorority is doing just fine, we are growing and doing what we need to do to succeed. Call it polite or what have you, I'm just callin it how it is. We should not let the actions of a few stop us from doing what we need to do. That is not only on the National level but on the local level as well.

I think Senusret NAILED IT with this:

Originally Posted by Senusret I

For as often as I have heard of disrespectful APO women, I have heard of the same of GSS. I wish both sides would see that they are being PLAYED by insecure men who don't respect the equality of Brotherhood or the distinct identity of a completely separate organization. It is those men who need the stern talking-to -- if they get it together, then GSS women would not feel the need to be defensive (yes, defensive) around women of APO, and women of APO would not feel the need to be on the attack (yes, attack).

What else is there to say? Better yet, why is it even that serious for my sorors and the female members of APO to even have a beef? If we are two separate organizations that clearly operate differently, why? Part of the reason is because people are gettin gassed up to dislike each other. What are we as women getting accomplished in our organizations when we're wasting time worrying about what the other is doing? Just last week I saw this group on Facebook titled "Yes, We Are Black Women in APO and No, We Are Not Gamma Sigs". I was looking at it like, "Is it really this serious?" Perhaps it is. From what I see, the female members of this frat are tired of being disrespected; they are tired of being told that they aren't truly members of their own fraternity; they're tired of being told they can't do this, they can't do that. Could you blame them? As a Gamma Sig I know I'm tired of seeing my organization be used as a "way out" of some of Alpha Phi Omega's policies...colonies are getting started so that chapter can be all male. As a Gamma Sig, I'm tired of meeting members of APO, fellow black women I might add, that almost immediately look at me with distrust or uncertainty about how I might treat them? So, could you blame me?

There's a lot of UNTRUTHS out there about both our organizations. I may not agree with some things about the fraternity--particularly the latest decision about "forcing" co-edness. My personal opinion? I think chapters should have the choice to let the chapter be whatever it's going to be, whether it's all-male, co-ed, or all-female even; but don't make a mandate out of it. However, that shouldn't dictate me in how I treat a female member of APO. What does my opinion have to do with me SPEAKING to someone, or how I treat them?

Luckily for me I grew up. And realized that in the big scheme of things, this is PETTY and TRIVIAL and as women in organizations of SERVICE and LEADERSHIP, we need to do better!!

[naraht]

Some additional numbers from National Board reports can be found at http://www.angelfire.com/mech/apo-truthnotfiction/

Originally Posted by gamma_girl52

Just last week I saw this group on Facebook titled "Yes, We Are Black Women in APO and No, We Are Not Gamma Sigs". I was looking at it like, "Is it really this serious?" Perhaps it is. From what I see, the female members of this frat are tired of being disrespected; they are tired of being told that they aren't truly members of their own fraternity; they're tired of being told they can't do this, they can't do that. Could you blame them?

Thank you, I think that encapsulates a great deal of the feeling.

Originally Posted by gamma_girl52

As a Gamma Sig I know I'm tired of seeing my organization be used as a "way out" of some of Alpha Phi Omega's policies...colonies are getting started so that chapter can be all male. As a Gamma Sig, I'm tired of meeting members of APO, fellow black women I might add, that almost immediately look at me with distrust or uncertainty about how I might treat them? So, could you blame me?

14 APO chapters counted as all-male now... If I'm counting correctly, 10 have Gamma Sig chapters (Clemson, Samford, Drexel, FAMU, MinnDuluth, Tuskegee, Duquesne, MaineOrono, TexasSouthern and Grambling). Lamar has a Gamma Sig Colony, Auburn as OPhiA, MaineMachias has Kappa Alpha Kappa (local) and Fort Valley, I can't tell. To reference back to Senusret's prior comment, the existance of Gamma Sigma Sigma has been used by the all-male APO chapters as a reason that they don't *need* to go co-ed. (prior to the Convention). (See web page referenced above.)

Originally Posted by gamma_girl52

There's a lot of UNTRUTHS out there about both our organizations. I may not agree with some things about the fraternity--particularly the latest decision about "forcing" co-edness. My personal opinion? I think chapters should have the choice to let the chapter be whatever it's going to be, whether it's all-male, co-ed, or all-female even; but don't make a mandate out of it. However, that shouldn't dictate me in how I treat a female member of APO. What does my opinion have to do with me SPEAKING to someone, or how I treat them?

Agreed.

Originally Posted by gamma_girl52

Luckily for me I grew up. And realized that in the big scheme of things, this is PETTY and TRIVIAL and as women in organizations of SERVICE and LEADERSHIP, we need to do better!!

Amen.

[gamma_girl52]

Originally Posted by naraht

14 APO chapters counted as all-male now... If I'm counting correctly, 10 have Gamma Sig chapters (Clemson, Samford, Drexel, FAMU, MinnDuluth, Tuskegee, Duquesne, MaineOrono, TexasSouthern and Grambling). Lamar has a Gamma Sig Colony, Auburn as OPhiA, MaineMachias has Kappa Alpha Kappa (local) and Fort Valley, I can't tell. To reference back to Senusret's prior comment, the existance of Gamma Sigma Sigma has been used by the all-male APO chapters as a reason that they don't *need* to go co-ed. (prior to the Convention). (See web page referenced above.)

Lamar no longer has a colony of GSS. They were disbanded in Fall 2006. Just wanted to correct that. Fort Valley doesn't have any service sororities. There were a few attempts to re-activate the Gamma Sig chapter there though.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by gamma_girl52

Lamar no longer has a colony of GSS. They were disbanded in Fall 2006. Just wanted to correct that. Fort Valley doesn't have any service sororities. There were a few attempts to re-activate the Gamma Sig chapter there though.

Thank you for the information. I don't know if it would be worth contacting Kappa Alpha Kappa at Maine-Machias to see if they were interested in affliating.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by gamma_girl52

As a Gamma Sig I know I'm tired of seeing my organization be used as a "way out" of some of Alpha Phi Omega's policies...colonies are getting started so that chapter can be all male.

If I was in your shoes, I think this is what would bother me the most. Something similar was touched on in the rush forum...there was a campus where there were local groups calling themselves "service sororities" when actually, they were operating more like NPC social groups - they just didn't want to have to follow some of Panhellenic's more restrictive policies. Using a group or a concept as a "way out" of anything is just so offensive and disrespectful.

[Empress0105]

a frat house is not just a house that official letters painted on the side...here at hu, a "frat" house is any location where everyone in that residence is a member of said org...they function as more unofficial frat houses, pardon me for not expounding on the technicalites of what is and is not a frat house

and sorry, but race is an issue....the culture of greek life at hbcu's is simply plainly different than at non-hbcu's. now the only difference i see between hbcu's and non hbcu's is the racial makeup of the majority of those students.......

i could respond to a number of these responses...but i won't. like i said, this was posted in my sorority's forum, so i'm gonna comment if i so choose....i also said that i am not in apo, so what i say amounts to a hill of beans.

i do have a question...how many all female chapters of apo are there? will they be forced to recruit male memebers and show that good faith effort?


my opinion isn't going to change, but all i can do is work that much harder to continue to spread MY service organization across the land as aggressively and stubbornly as i see alpha phi omegans spreading theirs


good day!

[naraht]

Originally Posted by Empress0105

a frat house is not just a house that official letters painted on the side...here at hu, a "frat" house is any location where everyone in that residence is a member of said org...they function as more unofficial frat houses, pardon me for not expounding on the technicalites of what is and is not a frat house

Fair enough, here is what the Alpha Phi Omega Standard Articles of Association says:
SECTION 15. HOUSING POLICY. As a Service Fraternity, Alpha Phi Omega does not operate nor
maintain a fraternity house as lodging quarters for Members nor for any other persons. A Chapter may
maintain rooms for meetings at the discretion of its Members.

Originally Posted by Empress0105

and sorry, but race is an issue....the culture of greek life at hbcu's is simply plainly different than at non-hbcu's. now the only difference i see between hbcu's and non hbcu's is the racial makeup of the majority of those students.......

I think the split has to do more with two things: History of the HBCUs which leads to a culture more likely to support the NPHCs and secondly, the dominance of the social environment of the University by the NPHCs. A school like West Virginia State University which is an HBCU, but whose current enrollment is 80% white will only have some of those characteristics.

Originally Posted by Empress0105

i do have a question...how many all female chapters of apo are there? will they be forced to recruit male memebers and show that good faith effort?

I'd split this two ways...
For chapters that have had significant numbers of both genders in the past and are just "down on their luck" in numbers and the 4 (to pick a small number) left happen to be of one gender.. They would just get advice/suggestions on recruiting in general, one of which might be having brothers (of both genders) from another chapter help at rush tables to help recruit. That's something that has been true for quite some time.

For chapters that have never had men, as far as I know only two chapters of Alpha Phi Omega chartered with no men: Carlow College and Cedar Crest College. Both of these chartered within the last 15 years and at least at the time had no men living on campus and a small number (<5%) taking classes. I have no idea if they have had male brothers or not. What's key is if they've ever made an effort to exclude male brothers (which would greatly surprise me).

The closest comparison would probably the Alpha Phi Omega chapter at Wabash College, which is currently an all-male school (and thus an all-male chapter). My *guess* on what would happen should the school go co-ed would be that the Regional Director would be very surprised (and perhaps even hesitant) with female brothers the first year that Wabash has women. The Regional Director would probably only become interested in "good faith efforts" after the school was co-ed for 2-3 years *and* the percentage of women at the school was greater than 20%. If the percentage of women on campus remained at below 10% indefinitely, I could imagine the chapter remaining all-male for *years*.

Out of the 14 currently active APO chapters that have not admitted women, none of them are at schools with more than 60% men in the enrollment (ranges from 26.5% at Maine-Machias to 58.8% at Drexel). On the other hand, the APO chapter at the Citadel (school currently 91.7% male) may have had periods with no women brothers after the school went co-ed.

This isn't about forcing a chapter to have members from both genders, it is about having gender no longer being a criteria used to exclude. I know that Gender and Race aren't equivalent, but imagine the following: Alpha Phi Omega was like those social greeks that up until the 1960s only admitted whites. In 1976 Alpha Phi Omega allows blacks to join, but allows chapters to remain all-white if they want to. The fraternity decides to enforce allowing blacks to join all chapters. A chapter at University of Georgia that was all-white would be forced to show good faith effort that they were recruiting from all-races, but the chapter at Maine-Farmington (school 97% white) might stay all-white without deliberately doing so.

Originally Posted by Empress0105

my opinion isn't going to change, but all i can do is work that much harder to continue to spread MY service organization across the land as aggressively and stubbornly as i see alpha phi omegans spreading theirs


good day!

Amen!

[arvid1978]

Originally Posted by naraht

The closest comparison would probably the Alpha Phi Omega chapter at Wabash College, which is currently an all-male school (and thus an all-male chapter). My *guess* on what would happen should the school go co-ed would be that the Regional Director would be very surprised (and perhaps even hesitant) with female brothers the first year that Wabash has women. The Regional Director would probably only become interested in "good faith efforts" after the school was co-ed for 2-3 years *and* the percentage of women at the school was greater than 20%.

This particular chapter is about a hour and a half away from me, so I'm quite familiar with them. They actually have a female advisor, and in my discussions with brothers from there, they'll go co-ed when the campus goes co-ed. Being that they're the only all-male chapter in the region of 44 chapters, they're quite used to being around co-ed APO.

[GrandAce#1]

Originally Posted by Empress0105

....i also said that i am not in apo, so what i say amounts to a hill of beans.

i do have a question...how many all female chapters of apo are there? will they be forced to recruit male memebers and show that good faith effort?

it's funny how you mention the support we've gtten from you, trust me we are thankful and grateful....but where was everyone when there were APO chicks threatening me and my LSs? when they came to our informational in letters to tell us we would fail? when they came to MY probate and disrepceted us? when they tell people not to rush GSS and slander us in thier recruitment tactics?

No disrespect, but you may take it that way, but if you know your opinion doesn't amount to anything, then why continue to throw it out there or even be bothered by this? Also, part of the ruling references that APO chapters do there best to represent the DEMOGRAPHICS of their campus, which many are not doing because they are all male, and if the chapter is all female on a co-ed campus, they are to actively recruit also.


As far as your anger and concerns go in reference to female bothers of APO at Howard "coming at you sideways", that I have no knowledge of. I personally am friends, good friends, with a few of the rechartering GSS members a Howard and wished them well when they informed me of what they were planning to do.
Realize that there will always be adversity when an organization outside of Pan Hell tries to come into the picture at HBCU's. It's over and done with. Lick the wound and move on. We had adversity from Phi Sig and all the male Pan Hell groups even though many of us were friends with numerous people in those org's. They felt threatened. Obviously the bruhs who you speak of felt that way also. Especially when you're always being told, as a female bruh, that you don't belong, or that you should've rechartered GSS at the same time you were rechartering APO.

I am no longer an undergrad at Howard, but if you have such an issue with this "great divide", why not reach out to ALL the members of APO when you hold joint chapter events? I understand some things may be specific to "2552", but what's wrong with starting a new initiative?

Otherwise, If you have no problems with the divide issue, well then, keep doing what you do...just stop whining about it when the female bruhs don't "show you any love." They don't have to. There are not "2552". They're not bound to that unity.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally, I feel this ruling is long overdue. This initiative should have been taken the moment the Frat decided to become co-ed. Maybe then we would not face some the issues before us now.

Hell, I've even had to handle a few "bruhs" down at FAMU because I had my letters on while visiting my brother. It is what it is though.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by GrandAce#1

We had adversity from Phi Sig

Not to be dumb but which Phi Sig would that be? There are a few in the Greek world.