Lawmakers Find $21 a Week Doesn't Buy a Lot of Groceries

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

See, that is why I truly respect your opinion, because of your level-headedness and even temper.

Likewise.

To much is given, much is expected.. And greater the responsibility... It is our duty and obligation to serve those who others may deem less deserving.

Again, I think it's important that we make the distinction between what a man or woman must do to lead a moral life and what a government must do in order to maintain a society.

In no way would I ever suggest that as Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc., all religions which value charity ever stop expecting a great deal from each other as individuals. From the government though? Do we really want to impose our principles on our fellow man and force him to pay into a bureaucracy which will in turn dole out his money to the lazy, the uneducated, the dirt-stupid, the criminal, etc.?

I'm somewhat of a libertarian when it comes to this aspect of government. The government's job is to protect my life and my liberty and my stuff from my fellow citizens as well as from the government itself (to a point). Beyond that, I believe our government tries to do more than it really ought to.

I anticipate that you're going to raise the issue that by paying in and supporting these people, I'm essentially protecting my life, liberty, etc., by keeping them fed, thus not sparking some sort of insurrection, crime, etc. My response would be that our current system, one might say, is at least partially responsible for the United States having the prestigious distinction of having the highest imprisoned population per capita of any country in the world.

I would also anticipate that you might say that I don't have a cogent argument because poverty is a universal problem -- it affects the rich and the poor and the middle class in some way -- that eliminating it helps us all and keeping it hurts us.

My response to that hypothetical line of thought is that a society such as ours, based on capitalism, is going to generate rich people, middle class people and poor people. If we provide a more comfortable existence to the poor folks, it would seem to me that we would eliminate the incentive to climb the social ladder.

I think poor folks should have it hard. The harder they have it, the greater the incentive is to take charge of their own lives. Able bodied folks should be forced to work at some point. It's as simple as that.

When someone learns that they can get by essentially for an unlimited period of time by doing nothing, they'll do nothing. If they have to work to eat, I assume most will take charge of themselves. That's survival.

I recognize it's not so black and white, but I think I see things in at least fewer shades of grey than you might

So a crackhead mother robbing people at gun point and chooses to smoke crack rather than rehab and get a job and an education, folks would find it easy to cast her aside... But the minute she changes, the very second she says no more, even if it is 70 X 70, even as a civilized society, we cannot refuse her. And believe me there are 1000s like her in every city.

Well, said crackhead mother should have had her children placed in foster care long ago. I would hope permenantly. Also, this woman deserves to be in prison. Society owes her justice and imprisonment.

Also, I'm not sure I'd risk society's love on a person who is such a risk. Were I the one doling out the public money, she'd have to get in line behind the people who are victims of people besides themselves.

Anyhow, I get that you're offering an extreme example.. and I agree that if this woman really wanted help, I think I personally (if it were within my means) would do so. The government though? How do we know that her pleas for help are not merely a ruse to get back onto the Health and Human Services' teet?

Yes, you are right to wean folks off the welfare rolls. But, I don't think we can begin to fathom the public health costs it takes when we do that. We already have a crazy Health disparity in several states and it all aligns with poverty moreso than ethnicity.

Health care is a different issue... but just to give you the very short answer, I do not think that health care is or should be a right in this country. Emergency room visits for things like broken legs? Sure. But the latest and greatest in cancer treatments for the homeless? Unless they're part of an experiment, I don't think so.

And we are not talking about people with all their marbles in place. Many of them are have clinically psychological problems beyond depression or bipolar. A lot of young men have schizophrenia. And a lot of young women are suffering from psychosis. Psychotropic drugs cost money, then you cannot treat with a drug without lifestyle modification and how do you make someone like that make better choices with financial decisions?

There are actually quite a few ways of attacking this. First of all, my "let 'em starve" comment was not directed at the mentally or physically infirm.

Past that, to take your meds or not take your meds is a personal decision. In the case of schizophrenia, I believe you'd be able to get treatment for that via Medicaid since you'd essentially be 100% disabled. Further, if that person is unable to care for themselves and/or are a danger to others, they will be institutionalized.

For less serious conditions like depression or bipolar disorder... there are many, many folks leading highly successful lives who have contended with these sorts of demons. Nothing is impossible unless the patient is bound and determined to be the victim, they can overcome.

And now we have turned this debate is a suitable discussion without all that personal emotions.

I do appreciate that.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Again, I think it's important that we make the distinction between what a man or woman must do to lead a moral life and what a government must do in order to maintain a society.

Well, in my old age, I have become cynical. My "perceived reality" is our governments aren't interested in maintaining any kind of society to be inclusive of all ladders of it. It will eventually become a dichotomy: the haves and the have nots.

In no way would I ever suggest that as Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc., all religions which value charity ever stop expecting a great deal from each other as individuals. From the government though? Do we really want to impose our principles on our fellow man and force him to pay into a bureaucracy which will in turn dole out his money to the lazy, the uneducated, the dirt-stupid, the criminal, etc.?

I find that poverty is starts in the mind. Most destituted people are poor in many ways that starts in the mind. Then it transcends into the body and finally in the soul. Most destituted are brokenhearted (part of body) because their minds are less adept (lack of educational opportunities and access), that causes them to despise themselves (no soul or spirit).

My response to that hypothetical line of thought is that a society such as ours, based on capitalism, is going to generate rich people, middle class people and poor people. If we provide a more comfortable existence to the poor folks, it would seem to me that we would eliminate the incentive to climb the social ladder.

I think poor folks should have it hard. The harder they have it, the greater the incentive is to take charge of their own lives. Able bodied folks should be forced to work at some point. It's as simple as that.

It has not been my experience to be so simple. Either-Or thinking never led anyone to climb social ladders. My best example is look at the "gansta rappers". They live in laps of luxury if they become famous, but they can lose their lives over stupidity, which looks like stuff that happens in poverty--that may be an underground sub-culture.

The only time able-bodied folks were forced to work in this country was during enslavement. I guess now, it is during imprisonment. But since simple jobs, i.e. making various license plates, are being outsourced for global "sweat shop" conditions, I guess the capitalistic market conditions are ripe?

When someone learns that they can get by essentially for an unlimited period of time by doing nothing, they'll do nothing. If they have to work to eat, I assume most will take charge of themselves. That's survival.

I recognize it's not so black and white, but I think I see things in at least fewer shades of grey than you might

But we already have beggars on our streets. We call them panhandlers. Right now they are adults. Are you ready to see children? And really, do you think the States are doing a bang up job with children who have to be in foster care? I have an entire case on NPR discussing what is going on with Mississippi's DSHS...

Well, said crackhead mother should have had her children placed in foster care long ago. I would hope permenantly. Also, this woman deserves to be in prison. Society owes her justice and imprisonment.

Also, I'm not sure I'd risk society's love on a person who is such a risk. Were I the one doling out the public money, she'd have to get in line behind the people who are victims of people besides themselves.

Anyhow, I get that you're offering an extreme example.. and I agree that if this woman really wanted help, I think I personally (if it were within my means) would do so. The government though? How do we know that her pleas for help are not merely a ruse to get back onto the Health and Human Services' teet?

Yes, I admit, extreme example.

Folks are all in a tizzy about the harshness of Paris Hilton's sentence and she broke a major law, but fortunately did not hurt anyone including herself.

Health care is a different issue... but just to give you the very short answer, I do not think that health care is or should be a right in this country. Emergency room visits for things like broken legs? Sure. But the latest and greatest in cancer treatments for the homeless? Unless they're part of an experiment, I don't think so.

So public health is different from healthcare. Health care is like you stated, broken bones and cancer treatments. Public health deals with populations, i.e. Giving the the standards of care entities must give when one breaks a bone or is diagnosed with cancer.

Now with poor people, the issue is their poor health started when they were infants. It is not just their parents were never informed for major vaccines to go to school, HAYLE, for some populations, they just don't send their kids to school because the children need vaccinations... if these kids fail to have their full course of vaccines, they risk the illness of infection to other people. And kids get sick all the time, the way illnesses work in them is they often mutate. So that bug cannot be treated with normal antibiotics, like tuberculosis...

And the one thing about kids is they eventually grow up... So now they are adults without appropriate vaccinations OR an education.

Moreover, this issue become more relevant with the complete absence of dental care. A child who does not have dental care with prevention, will inevitably suffer dental disease. If they don't fail to get treated, their teeth rot, if their teeth rot, they don't eat properly. Healthy foods, like apples and carrots are not consumed because it hurts to eat them. Bad foods like fast foods that are soft or better yet, substance abuse which causes appetite suppression are preferably consumed...

Now, with the combination of bad foods and substance abuse has been shown to cause congestive heart failure and cancer in long-time abusers.

Our medical establishment will not make a decision not to treat. Physicians inadvertantly make those choices, but they can risk an entire career if they lack cultural competency towards populations.

This issue is about either having people live a fairly dignfied life or dying like flies as if there was genocide. The US is ill prepared to deal with that on their own soil if it were to happen in this modern day and age. However, the Native Americans may have a different viewpoint.

Past that, to take your meds or not take your meds is a personal decision. In the case of schizophrenia, I believe you'd be able to get treatment for that via Medicaid since you'd essentially be 100% disabled. Further, if that person is unable to care for themselves and/or are a danger to others, they will be institutionalized.

For less serious conditions like depression or bipolar disorder... there are many, many folks leading highly successful lives who have contended with these sorts of demons. Nothing is impossible unless the patient is bound and determined to be the victim, they can overcome.

Yes, from outside, it is a "personal decision". But as an advocate for improved healthcare, if I haven't seen it once, I have seen it a million times, folks DO NOT take their meds properly. There are New England Journal of Medicine and Journal of American Medical Association articles devoted to understanding medication adherence. Even after the physician or nurse practioner tells patients and makes them recite the directives back. Patients lack full understanding of what these meds are suppose to do... Especially psychotropic drugs. And that is a fact about these disease of the mind. The drugs and treatment actually do make one feel better about oneself, but it is a puffed up feeling because this is the nature of side effects and the illness... So the person eventually stops taking the meds and the bad symptoms of his or her mental illness repeats--like a vicious cycle.

As a poor person, how are they going to understand the validity of major mental illnesses and vigilance in these medications? Complex that with a cultural taboo regarding mental illnesses generally. You should hear the crap I hear from the communities I work with...

[SOPi_Jawbreaker]

Poverty is a vicious cycle. This is The United States of America, the land of opportunity, where through sheer hard work and determination, people can come from nothing and still achieve the American dream. However, it takes hard, hard, hard work. And I do not believe that success happens in a vaccuum.

There's stories of people coming from poverty, working hard, getting into Harvard or Yale, and becoming a CEO or a lawyer or a doctor. However, I would be willing to bet cold hard cash that every one of them can point to at least one influential person in their lives...mother, father, uncle, aunt, grandparent, teacher, coach, pastor, mentor, etc. Expectations can be powerful things. It's hard to succeed if everyone in your life has low expectations for you and don't think you're going to amount to much. If you are a child and there is absolutely no one in your life encouraging you...if every important person in your life (family, friends, teachers, etc.) all have low expectations for you, you're going to aim low. If the important people in your life have raised and taught you well and expect big things for you, you're going to aim for the stars. My parents expected me to go to college. My teachers expected me to go to college. My friends expected me to go to college. There was never a question or doubt in my mind of whether or not I was going to go to college. Having set high goals for myself and knowing that others had high expectations for me, I felt like I had to guard my future, which meant not getting mixed up with the wrong crowd, not drinking, not smoking, not doing drugs, not cutting school, not becoming a teenage mother, etc. I knew people were counting on me and I didn't want to let them down or let myself down. So I think it's really important for every child to have someone who believes in him/her and for that someone to build up the child until he/she believes in himself/herself.

A good work ethic is essential for success, and I don't believe that people are just born with a good work ethic. It's something that's learned. If a child grows up with negligent, drug-addict parents, who's there to teach that child a good work ethic? Who's there to make sure the child stays focused on succeeding in school and is not tempted astray by the lure of easy money from stealing and drug-dealing? If a child grows up always being told he/she is stupid and worthless, how is that child going to succeed? Yes, in my hypothetical situation, child services should have removed the child long ago and the parents should have been locked up, but it doesn't always happen due to overcrowding in both foster care and prisons. In my hypothetical situation, success requires an adult (teacher, coach, mentor, community leader, church leader, etc.) taking an interest and a responsibility for that child...encouraging the child, building up the child's self-esteem and self-worth, teaching the child hard work and perseverence, teaching the child the value of education, teaching the child to keep his/her eye on the big picture (becoming a docotor or a lawyer or whatever his/her dreams are), making sure the child stays on the straight and narrow (avoiding drugs, alcohol, gangs, teen pregnancy, etc.) and doesn't lose focus on his/her goals, making sure the child knows he/she is worthy of success and higher education, etc.

There definitely needs to be changes made to our current welfare system to prevent abuse. I don't know what the solution is, though. But I'm definitely against completely doing away with social services. The children are the ones that will suffer. I think there needs to be a way to ensure that food stamps are being used to feed children and not being used to feed parents' drug habits. I also think that there needs to be some kind of limitation on the length of time people can be on welfare, so people aren't just on welfare indefinitely if they are physically and mentally able to work. I think the keys to a huge societal change are children and education. If, through mentoring programs and after-school programs, one child goes from poverty to college graduate, then the cycle of poverty can broken for that child's future children and grandchildren.



I'm just realizing how rambly this post has been. Way past my bedtime.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by SOPi_Jawbreaker

There's stories of people coming from poverty, working hard, getting into Harvard or Yale, and becoming a CEO or a lawyer or a doctor. However, I would be willing to bet cold hard cash that every one of them can point to at least one influential person in their lives...mother, father, uncle, aunt, grandparent, teacher, coach, pastor, mentor, etc.

Absolutely - and I would also say that for every one success, there are a 100 (or more) unsuccessful people. Add to that list of influences a caring guidance counselor which many schools do not have.

Expectations can be powerful things. It's hard to succeed if everyone in your life has low expectations for you and don't think you're going to amount to much.

Co-sign 100%

A good work ethic is essential for success, and I don't believe that people are just born with a good work ethic. It's something that's learned. If a child grows up with negligent, drug-addict parents, who's there to teach that child a good work ethic? Who's there to make sure the child stays focused on succeeding in school and is not tempted astray by the lure of easy money from stealing and drug-dealing? If a child grows up always being told he/she is stupid and worthless, how is that child going to succeed?

Once again, you speak the truth. The Greeks out there who are making a difference in the lives of children and adults in this situation have taken on a wonderful and challenging task. This is why volunteer mentor programs are vital to changing the face of poverty.

[PenguinTrax]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I started reading, but will admit that I gave up when they started on the guilt trip about us being the richest country, etc. etc.

If you don't want to live on food stamps, get a job. If someone can survive on the current food stamp budget, power to 'em. The government should only provide the very basic minimum needs. If food stamp recipients want to be able to afford some cheese for those chips, they can enter the work force.

Roughly 15 years ago I worked a fulltime job and was eligible for food stamps. After paying minimal rent/utilities and medical bills (I was uninsured) I subsisted on $10 a week for gas (to get to work) and food. This went on for over a year. Getting a job isn't always the answer.

[BetteDavisEyes]

Originally Posted by KappaKittyCat

Not to sidetrack the conversation, but I just ran across a very interesting book called The Feminine Mistake (by Leslie Bennetts) that discusses this very issue. It talks about women who didn't work once they got married because they had a man to provide for them, and then something happened to their husbands (death or divorce) and they were left without the means to fend for themselves.

Sidetracking still: That situation happened to my sister. She had 2 kids & no work experience whatsoever. Mom took them all in & between my sisters & I, we took turns watching her kids during the day so she could go to school. Now she's back on her feet & has learned a hard lesson about life.

[BetteDavisEyes]

Originally Posted by JWithers

If we all got what we truly deserved we would all be in hell.

Wow. I don't know if this is the funniest statement I've read or the most ignorant.

[Tom Earp]

There are many more programs today than ever before to aid students.

It used to be you had certain grades, then you qualified for scholarships and if you did not, you paid for it yourself if you could afford to go to college.

Today scholarships abound for sports, band, cheer leading and even being a cowboy.

There are also loans or grants given by the colleges. If you keep your grades and stay in school, it is free payable only if leave school or do not keep GPA up. I saw a report a while back that should college grants that covered 1/2 - 2/3s of the yealy cost.

If college is not your place, there are vocational schools to learn a trade.

I grew up poor and had a choice, work my senior year, save money, go to college, or get a job and buy a car. I opted for college, the first in my entire family to attend college. There I washed, mopped and waxed floors for extra money.

I found out years later that my folks house $19.00 a month and were strapped for it each month with both working full time jobs. I did not know we were poor, I just figured we were like everyone else in the neighbor hood and lived with it.

So if some whine about not getting into the Law School they wanted and had to opt for a lesser one, what a shame or if someone wanted to go to a more prestigious college and couldn't, to sad.

There are programs out there for people in need if they look for them. But the problem is today is so many people use it because that is there job, not working and depleting the funds for those who do.

Do I agree with Kevin on many points, yes I do. I know people who live on the streets and want nothing more. They do not want jobs!

For the poster who opted not to have kids, there is nothing wrong with that. When I graduated from college, I was middle management for RH Macy and made $550.00 a month and my then wife made $350.00 a month. Seemed like a lot of money in the late 60's but it really wasn't but costs were cheaper then compared to now.

If some people want to find out, then they should ask and not cry about not having a job. I see help wanted signs all of the time and no takers? Why?

Next time you ae in a fast food eatery, check out the cash registars, they have pix of the products so the people do not have to read and everything is automated so they can look to see how much change is to be given back.

[susan314]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Susan: I have become the queen of maximizing the grocery shopping since my divorce and I spend about half what you do each month! I work the sales for sure, buy generics a lot (because I've found that 90% of the time, they are just as good as the brand name items), store hop to get the best deals. It is definitely more time consuming. However, when I go to the fruit market, I can get 10 times the amount of produce for half the price than if I buy produce at the grocery store. It's an art, but I've become good at it.

That's pretty impressive. I'll be happy when we get out of the diaper stage - that adds a lot to the budget. (Figure I have about 6 months left on that...) The dog food adds a hefty chunk to the budget too...he eats like a horse...but he's part of the family and good for the kids, so I suppose its worth it.

I could probably trim a little more out of the budget if I tried, but we've already saved so much money over spending levels from before ($700 dropped down to $250-300) that I'm not ready to scale back further yet. My husband has certain things/brands that he likes, which could be eliminated if absolutely necessary. But, since we're managing with where we are, I let him and the kids have a few splurges. (I could probably get meat a little cheaper at the grocery store, but we have an amazing local butcher shop that offers excellent service. I just try to stock up when they have stuff on sale - thank god for big freezers. )

Speaking of produce markets/fruit stands, I have a question that's semi-on topic...I've heard that in many inner cities, there just simply isn't a place to buy fresh produce, or at least at reasonable prices. Seems like I read an article a while back which gave examples of the lengths a person (who didn't have a car) would have to go to get fresh produce. When I think about it, there aren't any large grocery stores really in downtown Toledo anymore - a person would have to somehow get out to the outlying areas to get to the big stores which might have bargain prices, or be stuck with the small quickie marts w/less selection and higher prices. I'd assume it might be the same in other cities too.

If I were in a financial position to do so, I'd open a fruit market in that area with pricing just to cover operating expenses, not turn a big profit. It scares me that there are kids in those neighborhoods who might not ever get fresh fruits and veggies b/c its either too great of an expense or hassle for the parents to obtain.

[JWithers]

Originally Posted by BetteDavisEyes

Wow. I don't know if this is the funniest statement I've read or the most ignorant.

It means that none of us deserve God's grace or salvation. We can't ever earn such a thing. Salvation is a gift we can never be worthy of, but He has given it to us just the same. (How great is that???) If we got what we really deserved, well, you know the rest!

And it was meant to be sarcastic, and yet so so true.

Now, it is Sunday and I am stepping out of the firing line for the day.

[JWithers]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Young lady, I am asking you kindly to privately message me due to a communication error.

Please do it, because you will bury yourself with your words and there is no sense in that.

What I am saying to you personally, is you actually do have something valid to say however you are crowding with misconceptions about a great many things.

I am nearing 40 years old. Do you think I would want to speak to you after my Hell in a Doctorate program in Molecular Genetics? I am grown enough to ask for help and have the desire to learn from you. Besides, believe me, I do have PLENTY OF OTHER things I could be doing.

But, if you choose to HATE ME... Fine.

I still mean what I say.

I don't hate you, I asked you stop accusing me of saying anything but what I said which was anyone can go to college. I stand by it.

I have no anger, only frustration at your insistence on putting words into my mouth. I have never once typed an angry word. You seem to be getting really upset, though.

And don't speak to me condescendingly. I am older than you. "Young lady" wasn't appropriate. (but , honestly, how would you know that?)

All I asked is that I be allowed my opinion even if it differs from yours, but I can see this makes you very angry. I will stop posting on the topic and let you have the thread. Peace?

I am just repeating the same-old same-old anyway and who wants to re-read the same stuff? Lord knows I am tired of it. You can't change my mind and I can't change yours.

As for the PM, I don't think there was a misunderstanding. I understand where you on on the subjest, but I respectfully disagree.

P.S. Molecular Genetics??????? Holy cow! And I thought Comparative Literature was tough.

[Drolefille]

Sure.

They always come back.

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Sure.

They always come back.

They all float down here.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by centaur532

They all float down here.

DAMMIT

Now I'm going to have "IT" flashbacks thank you very much.

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

DAMMIT

Now I'm going to have "IT" flashbacks thank you very much.

Damnit now I'm going to picture JWithers as Pennywise. Thank YOU very much!