Homeless people

[AlexMack]

Dude, you're a real selfish prick. Okay, harrassing you is one thing but just plain not giving a damn?
Sorry I was raised in a family where my parents would travel to London once a month with vanloads of sandwiches, drinks, old clothes and blankets to hand out to the homeless.
It doesn't matter how they got there, the fact is they're homeless. Have a little goddamn compassion in that stone lump you call a heart.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by centaur532

It doesn't matter how they got there, the fact is they're homeless. Have a little goddamn compassion in that stone lump you call a heart.

Why should I have compassion for someone who doesn't even care enough for themselves to take advantage of free services within walking distance? We have free food, clothing, shelter, psychological counseling, rehab and job training/placement services all within walking distance of here.

Compassion should not be blind and stupid. I honestly do not care that you think I'm insensitive or whatnot. I don't see why it's obligatory to have "a little goddamn compassion" about what happens to someone who tries to sell me a line of B.S. so that I'll give them money to buy alcohol/drugs with.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Why should I have compassion for someone who doesn't even care enough for themselves to take advantage of free services within walking distance? We have free food, clothing, shelter, psychological counseling, rehab and job training/placement services all within walking distance of here.

Compassion should not be blind and stupid. I honestly do not care that you think I'm insensitive or whatnot. I don't see why it's obligatory to have "a little goddamn compassion" about what happens to someone who tries to sell me a line of B.S. so that I'll give them money to buy alcohol/drugs with.

Would you like to discuss the state of mental health care in this country? A lot of homeless people are those who cannot receive enough care whether medication, therapy, residential care or otherwise to function in normal society. Their job/insurance/Medicaid doesn't pay for their pills (or only pays for pills not therapy to help you stay on them) which leads to your schizophrenia causing you to lose your job. No job, no home. If you're not serverly disabled you can't stay at a mental health facility long term. Social services try but there's not enough money.

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Why should I have compassion for someone who doesn't even care enough for themselves to take advantage of free services within walking distance? We have free food, clothing, shelter, psychological counseling, rehab and job training/placement services all within walking distance of here.

Compassion should not be blind and stupid. I honestly do not care that you think I'm insensitive or whatnot. I don't see why it's obligatory to have "a little goddamn compassion" about what happens to someone who tries to sell me a line of B.S. so that I'll give them money to buy alcohol/drugs with.

I'm not saying blindly give, I am saying you're lumping all homeless people under the same umbrella, like they're not good enough to breathe the same air. Yes, some people could go out and get jobs, but a lot of homeless people, for various reasons, can't do that.
I literally don't carry change or cash on me, otherwise I would give a lot more. Maybe I'm just soft, whereas my career would indicate that I be burned out and hardened.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by centaur532

I'm not saying blindly give, I am saying you're lumping all homeless people under the same umbrella, like they're not good enough to breathe the same air.

Are you kidding? He specifically separated the homeless into two distinct groups, and noted an example of why he feels something resembling compassion for one and not the other. Wow.

Originally Posted by centaur532

Yes, some people could go out and get jobs, but a lot of homeless people, for various reasons, can't do that.

OK . . . what are those 'various reasons'? If it's mental health issues, then the problem lies with the failure of the welfare state to adequately and efficiently fund the resources already available - which can mean anything from the state/federal government to the actual agencies in charge (this is another argument entirely).

If it's social Darwinism in any form (job market, pride/humility, housing costs, etc) then I'm not sure exactly how you're going to reconcile this point - are you really helping by funding the 'homeless lifestyle'? I mean this in earnest - I don't really know the answer. It seems like there is some short-term compassion that would prevent long-term improvement, but it is really hard to say/quantify.

[tld221]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Why should I have compassion for someone who doesn't even care enough for themselves to take advantage of free services within walking distance?

i believe in economics there are the employed and unemployed. the unemployed are broken into: not working and actively seeking, not working and not seeking, and the discouraged worker, who is so fed up with looking for work because the market had slammed them with "dont call us well call you" and "you just dont have the qualifications" for years. that, plus, say... NOT HAVING A HOME or any resources to call your own, well that will kick you in the @ss anyday and surely make you not give a damn.

Originally Posted by Kevin

We have free food, clothing, shelter, psychological counseling, rehab and job training/placement services all within walking distance of here.

Riiiiiiiiiiight. and once the homeless start taking advantage of these "free" services, people like you start complaining about how your hard-earned tax dollars are paying for no-good people who can't get it together but could if they wanted to. and again, im going back to the pride issue - it takes a lot for someone to say "i need [insert assistance] help." that admits you cant provide for yourself (and potentially your family). and isnt that the american dream anyway - to be able to be as self-sufficient as possible?

and this takes me back to my OP about homeless people being "people without homes" because guess what? homeless people are PEOPLE first. that means like you, they have feelings. like you, they have (or had) dreams. like you, they at one point have enjoyed the comforts of a home, a decent meal and stability. but even without all of that, they are still PEOPLE. so while you say "why cant they just go to the free shelters, or the free soup kitchens?" youre suggesting a man (or woman) to go to another man and say "give to me." talk about feelings of emasculation.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Compassion should not be blind and stupid. I honestly do not care that you think I'm insensitive or whatnot. I don't see why it's obligatory to have "a little goddamn compassion" about what happens to someone who tries to sell me a line of B.S. so that I'll give them money to buy alcohol/drugs with.

no, you shouldnt be blindly or stupidly compassionate. in fact i think most of the posters here are saying to be compassionate with some sort of knowledge. because right now, youre spewing a bunch of right-wing BS one-liners that show no depth of knowledge than what you see at face value. i swear if there is a pamphlet of "common homeless myths" everything you have said would be in there.

[Still BLUTANG]

i'm the type of person who always gives food to the homeless. Maybe because i'm chubby, i always have an extra granola bar or piece of fruit or bottle of water on me... i don't see it as a big deal to spare.

If they ask for money, i just let them know i don't have it (honestly) but if you're hungry i have something to share. If i'm downtown or somewhere walking (and i have TIME) i will offer to take them to mcdonalds or something. sometimes people accept, sometimes people cuss me out. Oh well, i've done my part.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by tld221

i believe in economics there are the employed and unemployed. the unemployed are broken into: not working and actively seeking, not working and not seeking, and the discouraged worker, who is so fed up with looking for work because the market had slammed them with "dont call us well call you" and "you just dont have the qualifications" for years. that, plus, say... NOT HAVING A HOME or any resources to call your own, well that will kick you in the @ss anyday and surely make you not give a damn.

So what you're saying is that there are people who don't want to continue to look for work because they either don't have any marketable skills [their fault] or they have some self-esteem issues [also their fault]. Like I said, there's a state program which had untapped capacity which provides job training and placement services for free -- in many cases it'll even assist people with relocation related costs (probably nothing more than a bus ticket if you're homeless, and the greyhound station is also within walking distance). So at the end of the day, we're still talking about people who don't want to be responsible for themselves (absent the physically handicapped who are eligible for government assistance and the schizos who we could probably do better for, but thanks to the Supreme Court, we can't just institutionalize them).

Riiiiiiiiiiight. and once the homeless start taking advantage of these "free" services, people like you start complaining about how your hard-earned tax dollars are paying for no-good people who can't get it together but could if they wanted to. and again, im going back to the pride issue - it takes a lot for someone to say "i need [insert assistance] help." that admits you cant provide for yourself (and potentially your family). and isnt that the american dream anyway - to be able to be as self-sufficient as possible?

Why don't you look at the original post. I was specifically talking about the bums who walk up to me on the street and ask for handouts, feigning illnesses, running people down, etc., not the people down at the shelter.

I couldn't care less that these folks take advantage of charitable services and state-run employment relocation/retraining services. I think those are great programs which provide an overall economic benefit if taken advantage of (even a marginally employed person costs the state less than an unemployed person).

You're making a leap here which simply cannot be inferred from any of my posts except that you're stereotyping me as a "right winger" or something along those lines.

and this takes me back to my OP about homeless people being "people without homes" because guess what? homeless people are PEOPLE first.

Awww.. I'll bet that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to say that. So people are not homeless due to their own bad choices. It's society's fault... two Americas and all that.

that means like you, they have feelings. like you, they have (or had) dreams. like you, they at one point have enjoyed the comforts of a home, a decent meal and stability.

It helps to have a job/income. That's the step 1 that many of these people can't seem to fathom. There's actually a business located pretty near to here where they can walk in, and if they can perform manual labor, they get paid for that day in cash.

but even without all of that, they are still PEOPLE. so while you say "why cant they just go to the free shelters, or the free soup kitchens?" youre suggesting a man (or woman) to go to another man and say "give to me." talk about feelings of emasculation.

Personally, if I were homeless, I'd feel a lot better going to a soup kitchen and using services designed for that purpose than hitting up random strangers on the street, making them feel uncomfortable, etc. The "pride" picture you're trying to paint here simply doesn't seem realistic.

no, you shouldnt be blindly or stupidly compassionate. in fact i think most of the posters here are saying to be compassionate with some sort of knowledge. because right now, youre spewing a bunch of right-wing BS one-liners that show no depth of knowledge than what you see at face value.

And you spew a bunch of typical left-wing b.s. one-liners, so I guess we're even in that regard, eh?

i swear if there is a pamphlet of "common homeless myths" everything you have said would be in there.

I don't believe I've said anything which you have shown to be mythical. Maybe you can point those things out to me?

[tld221]

Originally Posted by Kevin

So what you're saying is that there are people who don't want to continue to look for work because they either don't have any marketable skills [their fault] or they have some self-esteem issues [also their fault]. Like I said, there's a state program which had untapped capacity which provides job training and placement services for free -- in many cases it'll even assist people with relocation related costs (probably nothing more than a bus ticket if you're homeless, and the greyhound station is also within walking distance). So at the end of the day, we're still talking about people who don't want to be responsible for themselves (absent the physically handicapped who are eligible for government assistance and the schizos who we could probably do better for, but thanks to the Supreme Court, we can't just institutionalize them).



Why don't you look at the original post. I was specifically talking about the bums who walk up to me on the street and ask for handouts, feigning illnesses, running people down, etc., not the people down at the shelter.

OK fair enough. however, you gave ONE example of your interaction with a homeless person. and surely you know there are as many different types of homeless as there are people in general. im just asking you to look at the other sides - that the answer to homeless people getting their ish together is so cut-and-dry. i suppose it could be in SOME cases, but i bet in MANY other cases, its not as simple as walking into some ready-to-work program and collecting your $ at the end of the day, getting dinner every day at a soup kitchen, or rummaging through a bin of clothes at a shelter. even then those are short-term fixes.

Originally Posted by Kevin

I couldn't care less that these folks take advantage of charitable services and state-run employment relocation/retraining services. I think those are great programs which provide an overall economic benefit if taken advantage of (even a marginally employed person costs the state less than an unemployed person).

again, fair enough. what im saying is that not everyone is willing to take advantage to what is there. i mean, just because someone is giving out something doesnt mean you should automatically take it. people have their reasons. who are you to judge?

Originally Posted by Kevin

You're making a leap here which simply cannot be inferred from any of my posts except that you're stereotyping me as a "right winger" or something along those lines.

i'm leaping just as much as you are. and yes, im stereotyping you just as much as youre stereotyping the homeless. now what?

Originally Posted by Kevin

Awww.. I'll bet that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to say that. So people are not homeless due to their own bad choices. It's society's fault... two Americas and all that.

i don't need warm and fuzzies, especially on an internet message board from the likes of your opinions. and no, i can agree with you to an extent that some folks are homeless due to bad choices. there are consequences to everything. now should you reach in your pocket everytime a homeless person asks you for it? not at all. but again, you dont know what choices that person made to get to standing in front of you begging.

Originally Posted by Kevin

It helps to have a job/income. That's the step 1 that many of these people can't seem to fathom. There's actually a business located pretty near to here where they can walk in, and if they can perform manual labor, they get paid for that day in cash.

again, you're cutting-and-drying.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Personally, if I were homeless... (I'd feel a lot better going to a soup kitchen and using services designed for that purpose than hitting up random strangers on the street, making them feel uncomfortable, etc. The "pride" picture you're trying to paint here simply doesn't seem realistic.)

see, and im going to stop you there. you can't really say "if i was..." in a situation like this. you (we, as in the fortunate) can afford to think in idealistic terms versus realistic terms. but since youre claiming im painting an unrealistic picture of pride, then i guess we're even huh?

Originally Posted by Kevin

And you spew a bunch of typical left-wing b.s. one-liners, so I guess we're even in that regard, eh?

sure. 1 point for Kevin, 1 point for tld221.

Originally Posted by Kevin

I don't believe I've said anything which you have shown to be mythical. Maybe you can point those things out to me?

sure:
1. "They aren't really all that bad off." yes, some of them really are that bad off. and dont even come at me saying "i wasnt speakiing for all, just some." you used "they" and that encompasses an enitre group youre stereotyping.
2. "If they're able to... they can definitely work." again, i disagree. i implore you to hire someone off the streets then if you feel that way.
3. "I'd never be in that sort of position." Never say never pal... i just hope your world doesnt come crashing down anytime soon.
4. "...so that I'll give them money to buy alcohol/drugs with." yeah, that's what ALL the homeless folks are doing, drugging and boozing up with your nickels and dimes. maybe theyre trying to grab a cheap bite from mcdonalds to take a break from same ol soup at the church down the street?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by tld221

again, fair enough. what im saying is that not everyone is willing to take advantage to what is there. i mean, just because someone is giving out something doesnt mean you should automatically take it. people have their reasons. who are you to judge?

If they're asking me for my money, they're asking me to judge whether or not they're worthy of my money. If they're scurrying around the streets hitting people up for money, invading their privacy and space, again, it's my business to judge.

i'm leaping just as much as you are. and yes, im stereotyping you just as much as youre stereotyping the homeless. now what?

Am I really leaping to say that people who are capable of remaining on their feet all day long, trying to con people out of money are physically capable of other kinds of work, particularly if they take the time to invest a little in themselves? I don't believe that's a leap at all. The fact is that those who do not avail themselves of such services remain on the streets. Why should I or anyone finance that choice? I know for a fact that these services are out there. If someone *chooses* not to take advantage of opportunities, again, their problem.

i don't need warm and fuzzies, especially on an internet message board from the likes of your opinions. and no, i can agree with you to an extent that some folks are homeless due to bad choices. there are consequences to everything. now should you reach in your pocket everytime a homeless person asks you for it? not at all. but again, you dont know what choices that person made to get to standing in front of you begging.

Considering the other choices I know for a fact that he or she has available to them, you're wrong. It may not be the case in your immediate area, so you shouldn't be casting such a wide net. I know *exactly* what services are available down here. Like I said before, I even did a little volunteer work for the job training/placement service (which is located near the homeless shelter for a reason). I know for a fact that this place does not get near the amount of 'business' that it is set up to handle. It is not an unreasonable inference at all to say that these unemployed, homeless people simply do not want to take advantage of a program which will train them, move them if necessary and find a job for them free of charge.

again, you're cutting-and-drying.

When I'm able to know that there is an out available to anyone with a working body and mind, I'm able to do that. If I can say with some degree of certainty that people are choosing to or not to take advantage of free services to help them reintegrate into society, then almost without exception (and I say almost because there's probably some situation which hasn't occurred to me) these people are making a choice not to work and to be homeless. Society does not owe you or I a living. It does provide opportunities. You either take advantage of those or you piss them away.

see, and im going to stop you there. you can't really say "if i was..." in a situation like this. you (we, as in the fortunate) can afford to think in idealistic terms versus realistic terms. but since youre claiming im painting an unrealistic picture of pride, then i guess we're even huh?

You're right, your assertion doesn't pass the smell test.

You're suggesting that someone who is hitting individuals on the street up for cash, dealing with a lot of rejection and spite, knowing that they are creating an uncomfortable situation for others has more "pride" than someone who simply gets in line at a soup kitchen or signs up for a program to help them get back on their feet.

[quote]Sure. 1 point for Kevin, 1 point for tld221.

sure:
1. "They aren't really all that bad off." yes, some of them really are that bad off. and dont even come at me saying "i wasnt speakiing for all, just some." you used "they" and that encompasses an enitre group youre stereotyping.

Substitute "they" for "many." Some aren't that bad off. Some, in fact, make a better living than I do (tax free) on public charity.

2. "If they're able to... they can definitely work." again, i disagree. i implore you to hire someone off the streets then if you feel that way.

As I have repeated here, there is a program downtown which by the way is not even near capacity which specializes in finding employment for these folks. I understand you're not well acquainted with downtown Oklahoma City. If they're able to, they absolutely can work.

3. "I'd never be in that sort of position." Never say never pal... i just hope your world doesnt come crashing down anytime soon.

Don't worry, it won't. I'm well prepared for any eventuality which may befall me (at least financially).

4. "...so that I'll give them money to buy alcohol/drugs with." yeah, that's what ALL the homeless folks are doing, drugging and boozing up with your nickels and dimes. maybe theyre trying to grab a cheap bite from mcdonalds to take a break from same ol soup at the church down the street?

Beggars can't be choosers. Statistically speaking, I'm going to be more correct on this one than you are. Drug and alcohol dependency is a big reason people end up on the street.

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Beggars can't be choosers. Statistically speaking, I'm going to be more correct on this one than you are. Drug and alcohol dependency is a big reason people end up on the street.

These are both mental illnesses as well. It's hard to get someone with an addiction through a rehab program period, let alone follow up with them and make sure they don't revert back to old habits. Welfare and state health is just in poor shape.
I'd rather give these people something to eat but yeah...just saying, addiction is a genetically pre-disposed illness, one that will cripple your life.

[tld221]

Originally Posted by Kevin

If they're asking me for my money, they're asking me to judge whether or not they're worthy of my money. If they're scurrying around the streets hitting people up for money, invading their privacy and space, again, it's my business to judge.

Am I really leaping to say that people who are capable of remaining on their feet all day long, trying to con people out of money are physically capable of other kinds of work, particularly if they take the time to invest a little in themselves? I don't believe that's a leap at all. The fact is that those who do not avail themselves of such services remain on the streets. Why should I or anyone finance that choice? I know for a fact that these services are out there. If someone *chooses* not to take advantage of opportunities, again, their problem.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Considering the other choices I know for a fact that he or she has available to them, you're wrong. It may not be the case in your immediate area, so you shouldn't be casting such a wide net. I know *exactly* what services are available down here. Like I said before, I even did a little volunteer work for the job training/placement service (which is located near the homeless shelter for a reason). I know for a fact that this place does not get near the amount of 'business' that it is set up to handle. It is not an unreasonable inference at all to say that these unemployed, homeless people simply do not want to take advantage of a program which will train them, move them if necessary and find a job for them free of charge.

by "my immediate area" you mean the greater NYC metro area? please there are hundreds times more homeless people than there are shelters, soup kitchens, outreach centers, etc. available. so in *my* immediate area, i do believe most of the people who need the help access it in some form, even if it is going to a pantry once a week for a loaf of bread or a men's shelter for a daily shower. and i'm giving YOU examples of volunteer projects i've worked in. and you'll always have your number of folks who just aren't trying at all. but again i couldnt pinpoint them on the street and say "that filthy liar - he could totally get a job and be OK if he wanted to." which is what you're doing.

perhaps the ratios are different in OKC than NYC and you are exposed to a greater number of folks who can actually get their hustle up and make something for themselves. i just dont see that here as much.

Originally Posted by Kevin

You're suggesting that someone who is hitting individuals on the street up for cash, dealing with a lot of rejection and spite, knowing that they are creating an uncomfortable situation for others has more "pride" than someone who simply gets in line at a soup kitchen or signs up for a program to help them get back on their feet.

oh, so damn them homeless because they're making us, the "priveledged" inconvienenced? oooh poor baby. you will live. geez.

and the dude who is asking you for change in the morning could be in the line at the soup kitchen in the afernoon, then back on the streets during PM rush hour, and in the shelter to get a bed for the night. just because homeless arent putting 2 and 2 together to make a decent living doesnt mean they dont have the smarts to say "well panhandling couldnt hurt - all people can say is no."

Originally Posted by Kevin

As I have repeated here, there is a program downtown which by the way is not even near capacity which specializes in finding employment for these folks. I understand you're not well acquainted with downtown Oklahoma City. If they're able to, they absolutely can work.

and this is why i say youre cutting and drying. you keep naming this ONE program. what happens when th less fortunate wise up, start taking advantage hardcore, and there are no more empployment in OKC? then what are you going to start recommending?

Originally Posted by Kevin

Don't worry, it won't. I'm well prepared for any eventuality which may befall me (at least financially).

and i commend you for putting yourself in an advantageous position. but i dont commend you for the level of certainty you are holding. i believe that is called "getting comfortable." and we all know folks who get comfortable take downfall the hardest.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Beggars can't be choosers. Statistically speaking, I'm going to be more correct on this one than you are. Drug and alcohol dependency is a big reason people end up on the street.

and conversely, people end up on the street and create a drug and alcohol dependency. so how are you more correct than I?

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by Kevin

It helps to have a job/income. That's the step 1 that many of these people can't seem to fathom. There's actually a business located pretty near to here where they can walk in, and if they can perform manual labor, they get paid for that day in cash.



Personally, if I were homeless, I'd feel a lot better going to a soup kitchen and using services designed for that purpose than hitting up random strangers on the street, making them feel uncomfortable, etc. The "pride" picture you're trying to paint here simply doesn't seem realistic.

Are you talking about Labor Ready? I don't know where you live, but there's no way people here in Seattle can afford rent, utilities, bills, etc. anywhere close to the city making the minimum wage that places like Labor Ready pay. YOU try working for $6.20/hour (or whatever it is now) and see if you can make it all on your own, without any family or friends for support. OH, and if you go to a place like McDonald's for a job, don't forget that the gov't gets its share, too!

Also, you seem to be uninformed about some of the services available to the homeless. Again, I don't know how it works in your city, but in many cities the homeless shelters only open in the evening for food and shelter...it's not like food is available to the homeless all day...and space is extremely limited. Usually most shelters in urban areas have to turn away many people, and shelters are also notoriously unsafe. Where do you expect people to shower for their job interviews once they're homeless? Or do their laundry?

Most people who are homeless got that way because of some life-changing event/trauma, and they have no one to turn to to help them out while they rebound. Once you're out on the street, it's really hard to get yourself off of it even if you want to.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

Are you talking about Labor Ready? I don't know where you live, but there's no way people here in Seattle can afford rent, utilities, bills, etc. anywhere close to the city making the minimum wage that places like Labor Ready pay. YOU try working for $6.20/hour (or whatever it is now) and see if you can make it all on your own, without any family or friends for support. OH, and if you go to a place like McDonald's for a job, don't forget that the gov't gets its share, too!

The cost of living/rent in Seattle versus Oklahoma City is vast. Rent is especially cheap here. I actually have worked at jobs which pay close to that amount of money (while in college) and coworkers who were not college students and had no other means of support were doing just fine. They weren't living luxurious lifestyles, or even middle class, but they were definitely making ends meet.

Also, you seem to be uninformed about some of the services available to the homeless. Again, I don't know how it works in your city, but in many cities the homeless shelters only open in the evening for food and shelter...it's not like food is available to the homeless all day...and space is extremely limited. Usually most shelters in urban areas have to turn away many people, and shelters are also notoriously unsafe. Where do you expect people to shower for their job interviews once they're homeless? Or do their laundry?

Not sure about the safety, but as to the food, we do fine. I've actually done volunteer work for the homeless, the food pantry is very well stocked, and as far as availabel services go, we're nowhere near capacity.

Like I said, there are programs which help poor and homeless find jobs, even provide job training. Those programs are not being utilized. Apparently, the "poor" prefer to scam the system.

Most people who are homeless got that way because of some life-changing event/trauma, and they have no one to turn to to help them out while they rebound. Once you're out on the street, it's really hard to get yourself off of it even if you want to.

You assume I'm so ignorant of the facts regarding this, what is your personal experience?

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Not sure about the safety, but as to the food, we do fine. I've actually done volunteer work for the homeless, the food pantry is very well stocked, and as far as availabel services go, we're nowhere near capacity.

Well, that's in Oklahoma. Oklahoma, despite what you may believe, is not a representative sample for the rest of the country.

I'm not going to input my opinions in this thread, because I'll either be demonized as a dirty liberal or heartless conservative, but damn. There's so much hypocrisy in this thread.