Homeless people

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by tld221

i believe in economics there are the employed and unemployed. the unemployed are broken into: not working and actively seeking, not working and not seeking, and the discouraged worker, who is so fed up with looking for work because the market had slammed them with "dont call us well call you" and "you just dont have the qualifications" for years. that, plus, say... NOT HAVING A HOME or any resources to call your own, well that will kick you in the @ss anyday and surely make you not give a damn.

So what you're saying is that there are people who don't want to continue to look for work because they either don't have any marketable skills [their fault] or they have some self-esteem issues [also their fault]. Like I said, there's a state program which had untapped capacity which provides job training and placement services for free -- in many cases it'll even assist people with relocation related costs (probably nothing more than a bus ticket if you're homeless, and the greyhound station is also within walking distance). So at the end of the day, we're still talking about people who don't want to be responsible for themselves (absent the physically handicapped who are eligible for government assistance and the schizos who we could probably do better for, but thanks to the Supreme Court, we can't just institutionalize them).

Riiiiiiiiiiight. and once the homeless start taking advantage of these "free" services, people like you start complaining about how your hard-earned tax dollars are paying for no-good people who can't get it together but could if they wanted to. and again, im going back to the pride issue - it takes a lot for someone to say "i need [insert assistance] help." that admits you cant provide for yourself (and potentially your family). and isnt that the american dream anyway - to be able to be as self-sufficient as possible?

Why don't you look at the original post. I was specifically talking about the bums who walk up to me on the street and ask for handouts, feigning illnesses, running people down, etc., not the people down at the shelter.

I couldn't care less that these folks take advantage of charitable services and state-run employment relocation/retraining services. I think those are great programs which provide an overall economic benefit if taken advantage of (even a marginally employed person costs the state less than an unemployed person).

You're making a leap here which simply cannot be inferred from any of my posts except that you're stereotyping me as a "right winger" or something along those lines.

and this takes me back to my OP about homeless people being "people without homes" because guess what? homeless people are PEOPLE first.

Awww.. I'll bet that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to say that. So people are not homeless due to their own bad choices. It's society's fault... two Americas and all that.

that means like you, they have feelings. like you, they have (or had) dreams. like you, they at one point have enjoyed the comforts of a home, a decent meal and stability.

It helps to have a job/income. That's the step 1 that many of these people can't seem to fathom. There's actually a business located pretty near to here where they can walk in, and if they can perform manual labor, they get paid for that day in cash.

but even without all of that, they are still PEOPLE. so while you say "why cant they just go to the free shelters, or the free soup kitchens?" youre suggesting a man (or woman) to go to another man and say "give to me." talk about feelings of emasculation.

Personally, if I were homeless, I'd feel a lot better going to a soup kitchen and using services designed for that purpose than hitting up random strangers on the street, making them feel uncomfortable, etc. The "pride" picture you're trying to paint here simply doesn't seem realistic.

no, you shouldnt be blindly or stupidly compassionate. in fact i think most of the posters here are saying to be compassionate with some sort of knowledge. because right now, youre spewing a bunch of right-wing BS one-liners that show no depth of knowledge than what you see at face value.

And you spew a bunch of typical left-wing b.s. one-liners, so I guess we're even in that regard, eh?

i swear if there is a pamphlet of "common homeless myths" everything you have said would be in there.

I don't believe I've said anything which you have shown to be mythical. Maybe you can point those things out to me?

[tld221]

Originally Posted by Kevin

So what you're saying is that there are people who don't want to continue to look for work because they either don't have any marketable skills [their fault] or they have some self-esteem issues [also their fault]. Like I said, there's a state program which had untapped capacity which provides job training and placement services for free -- in many cases it'll even assist people with relocation related costs (probably nothing more than a bus ticket if you're homeless, and the greyhound station is also within walking distance). So at the end of the day, we're still talking about people who don't want to be responsible for themselves (absent the physically handicapped who are eligible for government assistance and the schizos who we could probably do better for, but thanks to the Supreme Court, we can't just institutionalize them).



Why don't you look at the original post. I was specifically talking about the bums who walk up to me on the street and ask for handouts, feigning illnesses, running people down, etc., not the people down at the shelter.

OK fair enough. however, you gave ONE example of your interaction with a homeless person. and surely you know there are as many different types of homeless as there are people in general. im just asking you to look at the other sides - that the answer to homeless people getting their ish together is so cut-and-dry. i suppose it could be in SOME cases, but i bet in MANY other cases, its not as simple as walking into some ready-to-work program and collecting your $ at the end of the day, getting dinner every day at a soup kitchen, or rummaging through a bin of clothes at a shelter. even then those are short-term fixes.

Originally Posted by Kevin

I couldn't care less that these folks take advantage of charitable services and state-run employment relocation/retraining services. I think those are great programs which provide an overall economic benefit if taken advantage of (even a marginally employed person costs the state less than an unemployed person).

again, fair enough. what im saying is that not everyone is willing to take advantage to what is there. i mean, just because someone is giving out something doesnt mean you should automatically take it. people have their reasons. who are you to judge?

Originally Posted by Kevin

You're making a leap here which simply cannot be inferred from any of my posts except that you're stereotyping me as a "right winger" or something along those lines.

i'm leaping just as much as you are. and yes, im stereotyping you just as much as youre stereotyping the homeless. now what?

Originally Posted by Kevin

Awww.. I'll bet that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to say that. So people are not homeless due to their own bad choices. It's society's fault... two Americas and all that.

i don't need warm and fuzzies, especially on an internet message board from the likes of your opinions. and no, i can agree with you to an extent that some folks are homeless due to bad choices. there are consequences to everything. now should you reach in your pocket everytime a homeless person asks you for it? not at all. but again, you dont know what choices that person made to get to standing in front of you begging.

Originally Posted by Kevin

It helps to have a job/income. That's the step 1 that many of these people can't seem to fathom. There's actually a business located pretty near to here where they can walk in, and if they can perform manual labor, they get paid for that day in cash.

again, you're cutting-and-drying.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Personally, if I were homeless... (I'd feel a lot better going to a soup kitchen and using services designed for that purpose than hitting up random strangers on the street, making them feel uncomfortable, etc. The "pride" picture you're trying to paint here simply doesn't seem realistic.)

see, and im going to stop you there. you can't really say "if i was..." in a situation like this. you (we, as in the fortunate) can afford to think in idealistic terms versus realistic terms. but since youre claiming im painting an unrealistic picture of pride, then i guess we're even huh?

Originally Posted by Kevin

And you spew a bunch of typical left-wing b.s. one-liners, so I guess we're even in that regard, eh?

sure. 1 point for Kevin, 1 point for tld221.

Originally Posted by Kevin

I don't believe I've said anything which you have shown to be mythical. Maybe you can point those things out to me?

sure:
1. "They aren't really all that bad off." yes, some of them really are that bad off. and dont even come at me saying "i wasnt speakiing for all, just some." you used "they" and that encompasses an enitre group youre stereotyping.
2. "If they're able to... they can definitely work." again, i disagree. i implore you to hire someone off the streets then if you feel that way.
3. "I'd never be in that sort of position." Never say never pal... i just hope your world doesnt come crashing down anytime soon.
4. "...so that I'll give them money to buy alcohol/drugs with." yeah, that's what ALL the homeless folks are doing, drugging and boozing up with your nickels and dimes. maybe theyre trying to grab a cheap bite from mcdonalds to take a break from same ol soup at the church down the street?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by tld221

again, fair enough. what im saying is that not everyone is willing to take advantage to what is there. i mean, just because someone is giving out something doesnt mean you should automatically take it. people have their reasons. who are you to judge?

If they're asking me for my money, they're asking me to judge whether or not they're worthy of my money. If they're scurrying around the streets hitting people up for money, invading their privacy and space, again, it's my business to judge.

i'm leaping just as much as you are. and yes, im stereotyping you just as much as youre stereotyping the homeless. now what?

Am I really leaping to say that people who are capable of remaining on their feet all day long, trying to con people out of money are physically capable of other kinds of work, particularly if they take the time to invest a little in themselves? I don't believe that's a leap at all. The fact is that those who do not avail themselves of such services remain on the streets. Why should I or anyone finance that choice? I know for a fact that these services are out there. If someone *chooses* not to take advantage of opportunities, again, their problem.

i don't need warm and fuzzies, especially on an internet message board from the likes of your opinions. and no, i can agree with you to an extent that some folks are homeless due to bad choices. there are consequences to everything. now should you reach in your pocket everytime a homeless person asks you for it? not at all. but again, you dont know what choices that person made to get to standing in front of you begging.

Considering the other choices I know for a fact that he or she has available to them, you're wrong. It may not be the case in your immediate area, so you shouldn't be casting such a wide net. I know *exactly* what services are available down here. Like I said before, I even did a little volunteer work for the job training/placement service (which is located near the homeless shelter for a reason). I know for a fact that this place does not get near the amount of 'business' that it is set up to handle. It is not an unreasonable inference at all to say that these unemployed, homeless people simply do not want to take advantage of a program which will train them, move them if necessary and find a job for them free of charge.

again, you're cutting-and-drying.

When I'm able to know that there is an out available to anyone with a working body and mind, I'm able to do that. If I can say with some degree of certainty that people are choosing to or not to take advantage of free services to help them reintegrate into society, then almost without exception (and I say almost because there's probably some situation which hasn't occurred to me) these people are making a choice not to work and to be homeless. Society does not owe you or I a living. It does provide opportunities. You either take advantage of those or you piss them away.

see, and im going to stop you there. you can't really say "if i was..." in a situation like this. you (we, as in the fortunate) can afford to think in idealistic terms versus realistic terms. but since youre claiming im painting an unrealistic picture of pride, then i guess we're even huh?

You're right, your assertion doesn't pass the smell test.

You're suggesting that someone who is hitting individuals on the street up for cash, dealing with a lot of rejection and spite, knowing that they are creating an uncomfortable situation for others has more "pride" than someone who simply gets in line at a soup kitchen or signs up for a program to help them get back on their feet.

[quote]Sure. 1 point for Kevin, 1 point for tld221.

sure:
1. "They aren't really all that bad off." yes, some of them really are that bad off. and dont even come at me saying "i wasnt speakiing for all, just some." you used "they" and that encompasses an enitre group youre stereotyping.

Substitute "they" for "many." Some aren't that bad off. Some, in fact, make a better living than I do (tax free) on public charity.

2. "If they're able to... they can definitely work." again, i disagree. i implore you to hire someone off the streets then if you feel that way.

As I have repeated here, there is a program downtown which by the way is not even near capacity which specializes in finding employment for these folks. I understand you're not well acquainted with downtown Oklahoma City. If they're able to, they absolutely can work.

3. "I'd never be in that sort of position." Never say never pal... i just hope your world doesnt come crashing down anytime soon.

Don't worry, it won't. I'm well prepared for any eventuality which may befall me (at least financially).

4. "...so that I'll give them money to buy alcohol/drugs with." yeah, that's what ALL the homeless folks are doing, drugging and boozing up with your nickels and dimes. maybe theyre trying to grab a cheap bite from mcdonalds to take a break from same ol soup at the church down the street?

Beggars can't be choosers. Statistically speaking, I'm going to be more correct on this one than you are. Drug and alcohol dependency is a big reason people end up on the street.

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Beggars can't be choosers. Statistically speaking, I'm going to be more correct on this one than you are. Drug and alcohol dependency is a big reason people end up on the street.

These are both mental illnesses as well. It's hard to get someone with an addiction through a rehab program period, let alone follow up with them and make sure they don't revert back to old habits. Welfare and state health is just in poor shape.
I'd rather give these people something to eat but yeah...just saying, addiction is a genetically pre-disposed illness, one that will cripple your life.

[Tom Earp]

While there are people who can do and wont, yes, there are people who cant and cannot really get any help.

One good example is a fellow who would sit in a parking lot with a sign saying will work for food. He was offered money to work clean up jobs and would not take them. He would bring his cache of food items and trade for a bottle of cheap wine.

He had family who offered him a place to live but wouldnt do it!

Remember, there are those who are panderers and more and more citys are passing ordinances for this very fact.

I have seen some who wear better clothes than I do.

Some alos have more money than some would think! Beats the hell out of an office or manual labor job.

But like Kevin, if I gave to every swinging begger, I could not afford to live either.

Scam to many times is what it is.

[Drolefille]

Are you saying you traded homeless people wine for food?

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Are you saying you traded homeless people wine for food?

Yes, and just what is your problem?

I knew this person and what his situation was not some little trivial thing you want to make it out to be!

[FSUZeta]

when i lived in jacksonville, i worked downtown. near my office was a park. on nice days i liked to sit in the park and eat my sandwich, which i had made at home, because i was just starting out and lived from paycheck to paycheck. i was accosted daily by panhandlers, from "hey, lady, give me some money" to "give me your lunch" to sexual innuendos. when one really scary man kept following me on my lunch hour, i spoke to a policeman on patrol and he basically told me that while he would be happy to speak to the man and tell him to leave me alone, unless he physically harmed me, there was nothing he could really do-that he would be violating the guys rights. when i asked him about my rights, he just shrugged his shoulders. i should have been able to sit on a park bench, eat my sandwich and enjoy the weather, without being bothered. kevin and his wife should have been able to walk to the botanical gardens unsolicitied.

3 true stories:

while running an errand one day, i saw a pitiful looking man by the side of the road holding a sign. the sign said that he and his family were homeless and he was willing to work for food or diapers. it broke my heart. i called my husband in tears and he said that he was near that location and he would speak to the man and offer him a job(we owned a construction co.) when my husband offered the man a job, the man wanted to know what he would be doing. my husband told him that he would be helping to keep the shop clean and would be assisting some of the employees-it might be working with a carpenter one day, working with a concrete worker another, etc. he would start him at $10 and as he acquired skills he would receive raises. the man thought for a moment and then told my husband that no, he would rather stand on the street corner holding his sign, because he could make more money just standing there and would not have to do physical labor. near the mans outpost were several fastfood places with "help wanted" signs- my husband asked him if he had thought about getting a job at any of those businesses-the man reiterated that he could just stand on the corner and people would give him money, so why should he get a job?

story #2- hubby and i stopped in bradenton, fl at a gas station. there was a man standing at the road, holding a sign"will work for food" at the entrance to the shopping center. i remained in the car while my husband filled up the tank and also while he went in to go to the bathroom and get drinks for us. during this time, the man with the sign goes into the gas station store, comes back out with one of those big cans of beer.he walks around the side of the free standing carwash. another man comes out from behind the carwash, assumes the position on the road of the original man and holds up the "will work for food sign". i guess it was 2nd shift.

story #3-my family and my mother were in a schlotzsky's in tallahassee. as i was paying for our food, a man, who appeared to be homeless, was scrounging in his pockets for some change to buy a bowl of soup. i leaned over to the girl waiting on me, and whispered that i would like to pay for whatever that man would like to eat, but i wanted to remain anonymous. i gave her a $20 and said just to bring me the change after the man left. she undoubtedly told the man who had paid for his food, because he came up to our table and thanked us. then the girl brought me the change-he had only bought a bowl of soup. it was a very humbling experience for me.

point is, there are scammers out there-sorry people who would rather degrade themselves than try to earn an honest living. then there are those people who truly need a little help. if the situation feels right to you and you are in a position to help, do so. if the situation feels bogus or you feel uncomfortable for some reason, don't feel obligated to help.

those of us who work are contributing tax dollars to social services that are available to people in need. many of us also contribute to charitable institutions which provide social services to people in need. just tithing at church can go a long way toward helping one person down on their luck. it is our choice if and how we choose to spend our money.

[tld221]

Originally Posted by Kevin

If they're asking me for my money, they're asking me to judge whether or not they're worthy of my money. If they're scurrying around the streets hitting people up for money, invading their privacy and space, again, it's my business to judge.

Am I really leaping to say that people who are capable of remaining on their feet all day long, trying to con people out of money are physically capable of other kinds of work, particularly if they take the time to invest a little in themselves? I don't believe that's a leap at all. The fact is that those who do not avail themselves of such services remain on the streets. Why should I or anyone finance that choice? I know for a fact that these services are out there. If someone *chooses* not to take advantage of opportunities, again, their problem.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Considering the other choices I know for a fact that he or she has available to them, you're wrong. It may not be the case in your immediate area, so you shouldn't be casting such a wide net. I know *exactly* what services are available down here. Like I said before, I even did a little volunteer work for the job training/placement service (which is located near the homeless shelter for a reason). I know for a fact that this place does not get near the amount of 'business' that it is set up to handle. It is not an unreasonable inference at all to say that these unemployed, homeless people simply do not want to take advantage of a program which will train them, move them if necessary and find a job for them free of charge.

by "my immediate area" you mean the greater NYC metro area? please there are hundreds times more homeless people than there are shelters, soup kitchens, outreach centers, etc. available. so in *my* immediate area, i do believe most of the people who need the help access it in some form, even if it is going to a pantry once a week for a loaf of bread or a men's shelter for a daily shower. and i'm giving YOU examples of volunteer projects i've worked in. and you'll always have your number of folks who just aren't trying at all. but again i couldnt pinpoint them on the street and say "that filthy liar - he could totally get a job and be OK if he wanted to." which is what you're doing.

perhaps the ratios are different in OKC than NYC and you are exposed to a greater number of folks who can actually get their hustle up and make something for themselves. i just dont see that here as much.

Originally Posted by Kevin

You're suggesting that someone who is hitting individuals on the street up for cash, dealing with a lot of rejection and spite, knowing that they are creating an uncomfortable situation for others has more "pride" than someone who simply gets in line at a soup kitchen or signs up for a program to help them get back on their feet.

oh, so damn them homeless because they're making us, the "priveledged" inconvienenced? oooh poor baby. you will live. geez.

and the dude who is asking you for change in the morning could be in the line at the soup kitchen in the afernoon, then back on the streets during PM rush hour, and in the shelter to get a bed for the night. just because homeless arent putting 2 and 2 together to make a decent living doesnt mean they dont have the smarts to say "well panhandling couldnt hurt - all people can say is no."

Originally Posted by Kevin

As I have repeated here, there is a program downtown which by the way is not even near capacity which specializes in finding employment for these folks. I understand you're not well acquainted with downtown Oklahoma City. If they're able to, they absolutely can work.

and this is why i say youre cutting and drying. you keep naming this ONE program. what happens when th less fortunate wise up, start taking advantage hardcore, and there are no more empployment in OKC? then what are you going to start recommending?

Originally Posted by Kevin

Don't worry, it won't. I'm well prepared for any eventuality which may befall me (at least financially).

and i commend you for putting yourself in an advantageous position. but i dont commend you for the level of certainty you are holding. i believe that is called "getting comfortable." and we all know folks who get comfortable take downfall the hardest.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Beggars can't be choosers. Statistically speaking, I'm going to be more correct on this one than you are. Drug and alcohol dependency is a big reason people end up on the street.

and conversely, people end up on the street and create a drug and alcohol dependency. so how are you more correct than I?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by tld221

by "my immediate area" you mean the greater NYC metro area? please there are hundreds times more homeless people than there are shelters, soup kitchens, outreach centers, etc. available. so in *my* immediate area, i do believe most of the people who need the help access it in some form, even if it is going to a pantry once a week for a loaf of bread or a men's shelter for a daily shower. and i'm giving YOU examples of volunteer projects i've worked in. and you'll always have your number of folks who just aren't trying at all. but again i couldnt pinpoint them on the street and say "that filthy liar - he could totally get a job and be OK if he wanted to." which is what you're doing.

Believe it or not, but New York City does not have a monopoly on services available for the homeless and unemployed. We have fewer here (obviously) and are probably better able to handle them. I was complaining about downtown OKC which is a far cry from NYC. It may come as a surprise to you that we have different programs and opportunities for the unemployed down here.

perhaps the ratios are different in OKC than NYC and you are exposed to a greater number of folks who can actually get their hustle up and make something for themselves. i just don't see that here as much.

I'd imagine as much. One can rent out a tiny efficiency for in the neighborhood of $300/month. It doesn't take nearly as much to get back on one's feet here. A fast food salary will definitely pay the rent.

oh, so damn them homeless because they're making us, the "priveledged" inconvienenced? oooh poor baby. you will live. geez.

The word "privileged" implies that I've inherited my financial status or something. That's ridiculous. Am I privileged to work 5 days a week and to go to school at night racking up massive student loans? No. I just work my ass off. Perhaps these folks don't have the raw material to go to law school, but they sure as hell can turn in half the effort I do and stock shelves at a grocery store.

and the dude who is asking you for change in the morning could be in the line at the soup kitchen in the afernoon, then back on the streets during PM rush hour, and in the shelter to get a bed for the night. just because homeless arent putting 2 and 2 together to make a decent living doesnt mean they dont have the smarts to say "well panhandling couldnt hurt - all people can say is no."

And I guess they'd have to be content to do that. To each his own.

and this is why i say youre cutting and drying. you keep naming this ONE program. what happens when th less fortunate wise up, start taking advantage hardcore, and there are no more empployment in OKC? then what are you going to start recommending?

Well, that's not happening, so your situation is hypothetical while mine is current. That stupid people "wise up" is doubtful.

and i commend you for putting yourself in an advantageous position. but i dont commend you for the level of certainty you are holding. i believe that is called "getting comfortable." and we all know folks who get comfortable take downfall the hardest.

I'm sure you'd like to see that. But no. I suppose if worse came to worse, my folks have a six bedroom house, so I'm sure they could find space for me.

and conversely, people end up on the street and create a drug and alcohol dependency. so how are you more correct than I?

So you're saying that your average homeless person begging for money is more likely to use it to buy a sandwich at McDonald's because they're tired of soup than on drugs?

[Tom Earp]

As I said, there are those who do not want to work or clean them selves up because they find it easier, and their are those who are left in the cracks whether it becaus of physcological or physical problems!

I will never become that way and That Is My Decission!

[KSUViolet06]

Over the summer, there was this man who would stand on the corner and hold a sign that said "will work for food or money." My stepdad saw him standing there on the way home from work.

We were doing some work on our house and yard at the time. So my stepdad stopped and offered to let him come do some work for us, since his sign said "will WORK for food or money." He told him that he could mow our front and back yards and plant some shrubs and he would give him some lunch AND $100.

My stepdad was totally shocked when he said "NO THANKS". You said you'd work for food or money and he was willing to give you both for what was probably 2 hours of work! I don't get that.

[tld221]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Believe it or not, but New York City does not have a monopoly on services available for the homeless and unemployed. We have fewer here (obviously) and are probably better able to handle them. I was complaining about downtown OKC which is a far cry from NYC. It may come as a surprise to you that we have different programs and opportunities for the unemployed down here.

no actually it doesnt.

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'd imagine as much. One can rent out a tiny efficiency for in the neighborhood of $300/month. It doesn't take nearly as much to get back on one's feet here. A fast food salary will definitely pay the rent.

if a fast food salary "definitely" paysfor the rent in OKC, then parents should start kicking out their teenagers now. and if that's the case, why dont you go pick up a McDonalds application? i HIGHLY doubt minimum wage food industry pays enough to pay rent... then again it is OKC. sooooooo, maybe you have a point.

Originally Posted by Kevin

The word "privileged" implies that I've inherited my financial status or something. That's ridiculous. Am I privileged to work 5 days a week and to go to school at night racking up massive student loans? No. I just work my ass off. Perhaps these folks don't have the raw material to go to law school, but they sure as hell can turn in half the effort I do and stock shelves at a grocery store.

well, you were priveledged enough to be able to go to college, which barely 25% of Americans get the chance to. you're priveledged enough to have a job that allows you to bust your ass to pay back student loans. hell, youre priveledged enough to even qualify for loans. AND, dont give me that BS of "what do you mean im priveledged?" out of one side of your mouth and then say some ish like

my folks have a six bedroom house, so I'm sure they could find space for me.

now i dont know many who come from 6-bedroom homes. but i cant imagine the loose change out the bottom of your pocket is any skin off your (or your family's) back. but your 6-bedroom house could be a total shack and your folks could be on welfare. tell me im wrong so you can prove me right that maybe there IS a twinge of priveledge in your blood.

Originally Posted by Kevin

So you're saying that your average homeless person begging for money is more likely to use it to buy a sandwich at McDonald's because they're tired of soup than on drugs?

we'll ive seen an equal # of homeless with their day's worth of change in Mcdonalds scraping for the dollar menu as i have in a liquor store buying cheap vodka. so... take what you want from that.

[Rudey]

I'll paypal each of you $1 to shutup.

-Rudey
--Thanks.

[Senusret I]

Has anyone said "There but for the grace of God go I" in this thread yet? If not, I did.