2 Black NFL Head Coaches to Superbowl XLI!!!

[KSig RC]

An aside:

It's a well-known (and cited) fact that, although the overwhelming majority of players in the NFL are black, fewer coaches are black.

However, the 'breakdown' of coaches, compared to the overall racial breakdown of the nation, is closer/more similar.

Which should be the benchmark? Is there a middle ground? Does the coaching 'pool' more closely mirror the pool of players, or society at large?

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by Phasad1913

WHy do you say "for the most part" then?





Well, seeing as how there is not history in this situation that would justify your cheering other than the same justification whites have given for supporting whites just because they are white forever in America, then yeah you should be looked at funny.

-And I can't believe you and your bosom buddy are acting like things are so color blind now. You KNOW the race of the man is considered when thinking about hiring them, whether they are making one statement or another. YOU all are the ones who are being unrealistic when you say or even think (and I'm sure you're forcing yourself to think this way) that those people who look at a group of individuals and have to consider who to hire don't look at the fact the one is black and one is white. Whether they utilize those thoughts to decide to hire or refrain from hiring is what no one knows, but the thoughts are most certainly there, I'm sure, and I would not doubt too seriously that they aren't jumping at the chance to pick the black man over the white one. If they do, then I think there was some internal (meaning within themselves) or external pressure to do so, which is sad.

I think it has caught up, but I leave my options open considering I don't know everything, and neither do you. I'm not gonna make some broad statement like "Nobody thinks about race anymore" even though I think that statement is likely true. How many good white receivers are there? Modern history shows white receivers don't do very well. Whats the difference in rooting for a white player because he's white, and rooting for a black person because they're black? I'm not talking about being happy for the two coaches, its been made rather clear that nobody has an issue with that. I do however think its ridiculous to root for someone because they're white/black. Thats where the double standard is. The fact is that its appropriate for black people to be proud of their race, but its not for white people. Putting history aside for a second, if I said "I'm proud, as a white person, to have Manning in the Super Bowl" people would think I'm a white supremacist. Now, to a degree I think this pride black people show in such things is appropriate, similar to how Irish and Italians were proud when one of their own made it to a significant post, etc...but siding with one race just because it is your own is something I think we need to get past in this country. Example? Duke rape case.

And Phasad, I don't think race is that big a deal in hiring. I think how you act is the key. Of course Goldman Sachs is going to be reluctant to hire somebody who although intelligent, dresses like a thug. Its not about race, its about how you present yourself. As a law student, firms absolutely eat up the black students who present themselves well.

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

An aside:

It's a well-known (and cited) fact that, although the overwhelming majority of players in the NFL are black, fewer coaches are black.

However, the 'breakdown' of coaches, compared to the overall racial breakdown of the nation, is closer/more similar.

Which should be the benchmark? Is there a middle ground? Does the coaching 'pool' more closely mirror the pool of players, or society at large?

Good question.

I think the better benchmark is the historical composition of the NFL. The highly specialized, specific skill-set nature of the NFL naturally limits the talent pool. I concur that historically (I don't have the specific stat either) that the majority of NFL players have been non-white. Given that, the 70+ year absence of AfAm head coaches, or even the chances to regularly interview for head coaching spots until recently, makes the "drought" all the more pronounced.

[shinerbock]

So black coaches should comprise 70 percent of the NFL ranks? I might have misread that, but I think thats a pretty ridiculous standard. As we all know, being a good player does not generally translate to being a great coach. A lot of the best coaches are backups who had plenty of time to sit around and analyze the game. Also, its obvious that a lot of players don't possess leadership qualities required of a good coach. This isn't really about race, just in general that simply because people can play doesn't mean they'll be good coaches.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Which should be the benchmark? Is there a middle ground? Does the coaching 'pool' more closely mirror the pool of players, or society at large?

No one's advocating a quota system but rather doing away with the existing barriers in hiring and promotion. That doesn't mean there'll be an influx of black coaches. It means there's greater and more equal POTENTIAL.

What's the benchmark for other sports? What does the NBA do? What do baseball and hockey do? The NBA has way more black players than baseball and hockey so does its coaching and managerial positions mirror that? How many black coaches are there in majority white sports like hockey--is that based on it being a majority white sport or the fact that there are more whites (with greater access to opportunities) in society at large?

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by macallan25

shut up.

It isn't your place or right to tell anyone on this board to "shut up."

Period.

[shinerbock]

DeltAlum, you might mention that to DSTS too, if you feel that way.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by TonyB06

Good question.

I think the better benchmark is the historical composition of the NFL. The highly specialized, specific skill-set nature of the NFL naturally limits the talent pool. I concur that historically (I don't have the specific stat either) that the majority of NFL players have been non-white. Given that, the 70+ year absence of AfAm head coaches, or even the chances to regularly interview for head coaching spots until recently, makes the "drought" all the more pronounced.

Just because the Rooney Rule wasn't put into place until a few years ago doesn't mean that black coaches weren't given the oppurtunity to interview for head coaching jobs.

Also, just because a black football player was a superstar doesn't mean he would be a good coach....at all.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

DeltAlum, you might mention that to DSTS too, if you feel that way.

shut up


It's my real life AND message board staple.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

It isn't your place or right to tell anyone on this board to "shut up."

Period.

Oh ok........but its alright for DSTCHAOS to.

You made a completely idiotic, borderline dumbass statement about the lack of owners that are black in the NFL. You needed to shut up.

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

So black coaches should comprise 70 percent of the NFL ranks? I might have misread that, but I think thats a pretty ridiculous standard. As we all know, being a good player does not generally translate to being a great coach. A lot of the best coaches are backups who had plenty of time to sit around and analyze the game. Also, its obvious that a lot of players don't possess leadership qualities required of a good coach. This isn't really about race, just in general that simply because people can play doesn't mean they'll be good coaches.

You've misread my post. I've never indicated that AfAms should comprise 70 percent of the coaching ranks, so I have no idea where you pulled that.

Nor did I ever suggest a 1-to-1 correlation between talent and ability to coach. What I actually did say was that with the 70+ years of talent imbalance (concurring with Ksig's? point) in the NFL, I find it highly improbable that AfAm numbers in the coaching ranks during the same period, and since, grew so anemically.

Just curious, what is your take on the numbers presented in the professor's analysis (found in the link in my earlier post)?

[shinerbock]

Yeah you're right. I scan things a lot on here. I'll get back to you on the link.

I read through the link. I'm not sure what you wanted me to comment on. I think the statistics mean very little, I'm not sure what point he's trying to make. Most of those coaches coach for decent teams, and the sample is far too small to make any generalizations. If the point is to say black coaches aren't bad, then sure, thats reasonable. I don't think it says much else though.

[Phasad1913]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Putting history aside for a second, if I said "I'm proud, as a white person, to have Manning in the Super Bowl" people would think I'm a white supremacist.

Putting history aside for a second? You really can't do that because that is the premise for this entire discussion, Shiner. If history was capable of being "put aside" then, of course, it would be no difference between the sense of a need for pride in the black race as black people and that of whites in their race. That, however, isn't the case so hypothetically putting history aside doesn't do anything for the discussion which is not rooted in hypos but in reality.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Now, to a degree I think this pride black people show in such things is appropriate, similar to how Irish and Italians were proud when one of their own made it to a significant post, etc

Well, this IS the basis for how we feel so if you can understand the sentiment for Irish people and Italians, then you should understand ours. Again, I really think you're just making a specific effort NOT to understand where these sentiments come from when any person of a certain age or older and with any amount of knowledge about the world's/American history should and does know why the sentiments and sense of pride come from.

And Shinerbock, your willful reluctance to acknowledge the very REAL existence of consciousness of race in the inner-workings of every facet of this society is part of the problem in this country with working these things out. Every healing program on earth starts off by making their participants actully acknowledge that they have a problem. The society is no different. The changes that HAVE occured to date only occured because there were enough people that first acknowledged that there IS a problem and then undertook methods to fix it.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by Phasad1913

Putting history aside for a second? You really can't do that because that is the premise for this entire discussion, Shiner. If history was capable of being "put aside" then, of course, it would be no difference between the sense of a need for pride in the black race as black people and that of whites in their race. That, however, isn't the case so hypothetically putting history aside doesn't do anything for the discussion which is not rooted in hypos but in reality.



Well, this IS the basis for how we feel so if you can understand the sentiment for Irish people and Italians, then you should understand ours. Again, I really think you're just making a specific effort NOT to understand where these sentiments come from when any person of a certain age or older and with any amount of knowledge about the world's/American history should and does know why the sentiments and sense of pride come from.

And Shinerbock, your willful reluctance to acknowledge the very REAL existence of consciousness of race in the inner-workings of every facet of this society is part of the problem in this country with working these things out. Every healing program on earth starts off by making their participants actully acknowledge that they have a problem. The society is no different. The changes that HAVE occured to date only occured because there were enough people that first acknowledged that there IS a problem and then undertook methods to fix it.

What a ridiculous response. I'm trying really hard to not understand you? Come on. History is irrelevant when you're talking about going for someone just because of their race isn't it? So because people discriminated against black people, its normal for black people to root for blacks over whites? Do I have pride that my family is Irish? Sure I suppose. Would I automatically side with people of Irish heritage simply because of that? Of course not. This is of course ignoring that that is a specific and rather small country, not an entire race of people.

I agree that race is a big deal in society, but not in the way you say it is. Everyone is prejudiced to a degree, I understand that. Do I think black people are discriminated against on a daily basis? Sure. How about for whites? Same answer. Please tell me how the current state of the NFL compares to the plight of previous generations of black people in this country. Please, explain to me what exactly you think is wrong. Show me where black coaches have recently been discriminated against. What is it you want to accomplish?

[Phasad1913]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

What a ridiculous response.

I'm not reading any further. It's my response. Take it or leave it. I could care less if you happen to think its rediculous. Hopefully someone else will benefit from my opinion and imput. I'm looking forward to the game. Being from Chicago, I'll be rooting for the Bears. Have a good one all.