2 Black NFL Head Coaches to Superbowl XLI!!!

[shinerbock]

So black coaches should comprise 70 percent of the NFL ranks? I might have misread that, but I think thats a pretty ridiculous standard. As we all know, being a good player does not generally translate to being a great coach. A lot of the best coaches are backups who had plenty of time to sit around and analyze the game. Also, its obvious that a lot of players don't possess leadership qualities required of a good coach. This isn't really about race, just in general that simply because people can play doesn't mean they'll be good coaches.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by TonyB06

Good question.

I think the better benchmark is the historical composition of the NFL. The highly specialized, specific skill-set nature of the NFL naturally limits the talent pool. I concur that historically (I don't have the specific stat either) that the majority of NFL players have been non-white. Given that, the 70+ year absence of AfAm head coaches, or even the chances to regularly interview for head coaching spots until recently, makes the "drought" all the more pronounced.

Just because the Rooney Rule wasn't put into place until a few years ago doesn't mean that black coaches weren't given the oppurtunity to interview for head coaching jobs.

Also, just because a black football player was a superstar doesn't mean he would be a good coach....at all.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Which should be the benchmark? Is there a middle ground? Does the coaching 'pool' more closely mirror the pool of players, or society at large?

No one's advocating a quota system but rather doing away with the existing barriers in hiring and promotion. That doesn't mean there'll be an influx of black coaches. It means there's greater and more equal POTENTIAL.

What's the benchmark for other sports? What does the NBA do? What do baseball and hockey do? The NBA has way more black players than baseball and hockey so does its coaching and managerial positions mirror that? How many black coaches are there in majority white sports like hockey--is that based on it being a majority white sport or the fact that there are more whites (with greater access to opportunities) in society at large?

[Sistermadly]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Haha, let's not compare Canadian football to the NFL.

I wasn't. I was comparing the historical record. Traditionally speaking, African American coaches (and quarterbacks) have found it much easier to get ahead in the CFL than in the NFL.

[shinerbock]

Well, everyone is better in the CFL than they are in the NFL, to be fair.

[Sistermadly]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Well, everyone is better in the CFL than they are in the NFL, to be fair.

See, I'd rather watch a CFL game over an NFL game anyway. You must really love the game if you're playing in the CFL for no money and next to no notoriety.

[Tom Earp]

Yes, I agree, it is a big deal. I admire the MEN whether Black or White, they are hired for the knowlege that they have aquired from working hard, not because it is of color.

Why don't you ask them?

They spent their times in the trenches and proved themselves noteworthy, not because of color but brains, training and damn hard work!

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

Yes, I agree, it is a big deal. I admire the MEN whether Black or White, they are hired for the knowlege that they have aquired from working hard, not because it is of color.

Why don't you ask them?

They spent their times in the trenches and proved themselves noteworthy, not because of color but brains, training and damn hard work!

LOL! White people really need to give this "colorblind" rhetoric a rest. This thread was just stating a FACT and that some people were proud of that known fact--just like some people are proud of other FACTS that go down in American and black history. You all came in here on some other crap and led the thread to where it is now.

[UGAalum94]

As many of you suspect, I'm a nerd. As such, I'd sincerely like to keep this discussion about race going because it makes me think.

Could we maybe open another thread to continue the discussion generally, but allow this thread to be purely celebratory?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

As many of you suspect, I'm a nerd. As such, I'd sincerely like to keep this discussion about race going because it makes me think.

This is a place where race discussions are never held in good faith.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I agree, not having any would be rather suspicious. However, we don't need an exact percentage for things to be fair. This stuff goes on in college coaching, and its ridiculous. Alabama got crapped all over for not hiring Sylvester Croom, who may not even be the coach at Miss State much longer. If the ability is there, they'll get a shot. I have a tough time believing that organizations are purposefully avoiding black coaches. Then again maybe they are, just like NFL scouts avoid white running backs.

Uh, you are probably being too hard on Sylvester Croom. He's been working through a pretty bad situation (they were on probation for his first few years when he took over because of Jackie's stuff) and MSU beat Alabama, believe it or not. I think he probably would have been successful at Alabama.


I think we're still at the point when it's appropriate to celebrate a bit when black people reach the top. I hope we get to the point when the playing field is so level that we don't find it noteworthy, but I don't think we're there yet.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

Uh, you are probably being too hard on Sylvester Croom. He's been working through a pretty bad situation (they were on probation for his first few years when he took over because of Jackie's stuff) and MSU beat Alabama, believe it or not. I think he probably would have been successful at Alabama.


I think we're still at the point when it's appropriate to celebrate a bit when black people reach the top. I hope we get to the point when the playing field is so level that we don't find it noteworthy, but I don't think we're there yet.

I like Croom fine, he may be a good coach. That being said, I don't think there are any indications that he is a better coach than Shula was. So if there are two qualified coaches, of comparable ability, and the white one is chosen, I think its pretty ridiculous to go crazy about it.

I still think it is a double standard. If I cheer for a white receiver, because he's white, people are gonna look at me funny. And when I say look at me funny, in Atlanta that means people might point guns at me. What do people expect AD's, GM's and owners to do? Can you name a lot of black candidates who have been shafted in favor of unqualified white candidates? I think things are right where they should be considering the pool of qualified coaches they're choosing from. I think its unrealistic that somebody making a hire cares so much about skin color that they'd sacrifice wins in order to hire a white person. If the quality black coaches are there, they'll get hired. I think its great that 2 black head coaches are in the Super Bowl, I truly do. However, I think to brag about it (this has nothing to do with the person who started this thread) or use it as a selling point for owners is pretty stupid.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I like Croom fine, he may be a good coach. That being said, I don't think there are any indications that he is a better coach than Shula was. So if there are two qualified coaches, of comparable ability, and the white one is chosen, I think its pretty ridiculous to go crazy about it.

I still think it is a double standard. If I cheer for a white receiver, because he's white, people are gonna look at me funny. And when I say look at me funny, in Atlanta that means people might point guns at me. What do people expect AD's, GM's and owners to do? Can you name a lot of black candidates who have been shafted in favor of unqualified white candidates? I think things are right where they should be considering the pool of qualified coaches they're choosing from. I think its unrealistic that somebody making a hire cares so much about skin color that they'd sacrifice wins in order to hire a white person. If the quality black coaches are there, they'll get hired. I think its great that 2 black head coaches are in the Super Bowl, I truly do. However, I think to brag about it (this has nothing to do with the person who started this thread) or use it as a selling point for owners is pretty stupid.

I feel different than you do because I do think there was a long time when black candidates were shafted in favor of unqualified white candidates. I don't know enough about NFL history, but I think it's likely that without either intentional or unconscious racism that a black person could have led a NFL team to the Superbowl before now.

I think things have been a gradual process, and you may be right that it wasn't until recently that black coaches were able to get the experience to seem as qualified as whites.

Croom may provide an example. If he had gone to college six or seven years before he did, he would have met George Wallace on the school house steps. Instead, it seems he entered in 1970 (was he sixteen when he started college?) and had a distinguished football career, but when he wanted to enter the SEC to coach, he wasn't good enough. His take, reported from wikipedia is this, "A lot of those [SEC] schools, guys are good enough to play for them, good enough to be assistant coaches and not good enough to be in the positions of decision making and the positions of high financial reward. And they're qualified." At the time the job went to Shula, Shula had ten fewer years of coaching experience.

There are times when I find concerns about race overblown, and I don't generally like double standards. But this superbowl is a historic first that represents the progress of the country. These guys earned the jobs and earned the chance to coach their teams in the Superbowl. It's great.

[shinerbock]

I still don't see any problem with the Croom situation. Both were position coaches who were pretty mediocre as NFL coordinators. You're an SEC person, so you know the importance of having a big name coach if you're a big name team. Alabama was striking out when the hiring took place, and Shula is a much bigger name than Croom. Of course to really get into this I'd have to talk about how important looking good is to UA, but the point is fairly obvious. In that situation they wanted the biggest coach they can get, and Shula was a name that could keep the rebellion down. I don't think Croom is an inferior coach, but I doubt he'd do any better at UA. After all, they won 10 games last year and Shula still got fired. Plus, if they had hired Croom PC may have mandated they give him more time than Bama prefers to give coaches.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I still don't see any problem with the Croom situation. Both were position coaches who were pretty mediocre as NFL coordinators. You're an SEC person, so you know the importance of having a big name coach if you're a big name team. Alabama was striking out when the hiring took place, and Shula is a much bigger name than Croom. Of course to really get into this I'd have to talk about how important looking good is to UA, but the point is fairly obvious. In that situation they wanted the biggest coach they can get, and Shula was a name that could keep the rebellion down. I don't think Croom is an inferior coach, but I doubt he'd do any better at UA. After all, they won 10 games last year and Shula still got fired. Plus, if they had hired Croom PC may have mandated they give him more time than Bama prefers to give coaches.

Oh, not getting picked to coach at Alabama is it's own reward if you ask me, for a lot of different reasons. But Croom had incredible ties to the university, so I think there were reasons they could have gone with him too. If you haven't looked at the wikipedia entry about Croom, I encourage you to look at it.

My general point is that it hasn't really been that long since people were openly (and as far as state law, legally) discriminated against, like Alabama six years before Croom; and it's nice to look at the progress and celebrate it.