Racial Conflict

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

I think many of the NPC or IFC founders were pathetically blind to the full equality of Black people. I don't think they thought about the inclusions of people of different races at all. They went with what they were familiar with, which was other white people. It would be interesting to know how many groups ever addressed the race of members before they published non-discrimination statements. I think most founders took it for granted that the members would be white so much that they didn't even mention race. Most probably attended segregated institutions, so the possibility of Black members didn't occure to them.

This is a little ridiculous/overboard. You can't blame recruitment decisions in today's time on our founding fathers. Lets take my fraternity, SAE....we were the only fraternity founded in the ante-bellum South....370 of our original 400 members fought for the Confederates. Our 8 founding fathers were from very upperclass families and were all officers for the Confederates.....hell, one of them is believed to have been the very first casualty. Blacks were slaves at the time, save a small number of them, do you honestly think there would have been any reason for an original SAE to consider a black man for membership?? No, absolutely not. They didn't "take anything for granted"....they operated according to how the lifestyle was at the time. You can say the same thing about Kappa Alpha....their spiritual founding father was ROBERT E. LEE....i'm sure black men post Civil War were just jumping at the oppurtunity to join.

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

Today, I think the majority of members of NPC and IFC groups are/would be proud to have Black members. The problem is that a few people who are concerned with being elitist tell themselves that it's better not to have Black members at all than it is to take people who aren't a "perfect fit." The fact that being Black is the only thing keeping a pnm from being a perfect fit never crosses their minds. The problem is magnified because other members and other groups aren't brave enough to deviate from what the elites do.

Can you not, atleast, open yourself to the fact that a great majority of blacks at large Southern institutions have absolutely nothing in common with large, white, top fraternities??

[Elephant Walk]

Shinerbock, I probably wasn't discriminating among you, Elephant Walk, and Macallan as much as I should have been. I have no idea if you are racist or not, but it seemed to me that the three of you were basically saying you couldn't include black members and be a top chapter. That seemed racist to me, but I'll take your word if you want to claim otherwise. I didn't mention Bush, but maybe that part wasn't addressed to me.

I will straight up tell you that we could not have black members and be a top chapter. There is no possible way. In majority white campuses (especially Southern), blacks would scare away the girls. Look at the bottom tier at the campus. The (in my opinion) worst chapters on campus include blacks Sigma Nu, Sig Ep, and Pike. That is third tier. Every one of them has one to two black members. There are no blacks in the 2nd tier and above. Therefore, I will tell you as a studied fact/opinion that there is no way a black person could be taken and continue being a top tier fraternity.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

I will straight up tell you that we could not have black members and be a top chapter. There is no possible way. In majority white campuses (especially Southern), blacks would scare away the girls. Look at the bottom tier at the campus. The (in my opinion) worst chapters on campus include blacks Sigma Nu, Sig Ep, and Pike. That is third tier. Every one of them has one to two black members. There are no blacks in the 2nd tier and above. Therefore, I will tell you as a studied fact/opinion that there is no way a black person could be taken and continue being a top tier fraternity.

I'm worried about your saying "scare away the girls" because that seems to founded on the most primitive form of racism, but on some level I understand what you are saying. I don't agree that the outcome of a top group accepting a black member would be the outcome you describe, but I think that you have accurately described the thought processes of many groups.

[FSUZeta]

i am in no way a cheerleader for pi kappa alpha at fsu, however, you are gravely mistaken when you say that pike is not a top chapter at fsu. they have the athletes, the movers and shakers, the faces, have the most members, have the alumni support, the largest house, have the largest pledge class,etc. i believe that they won a top award at the fraternity's most recent convention. in my estimation, that qualifies them as a top chapter.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

i am in no way a cheerleader for pi kappa alpha at fsu, however, you are gravely mistaken when you say that pike is not a top chapter at fsu. they have the athletes, the movers and shakers, the faces, have the most members, have the alumni support, the largest house, have the largest pledge class,etc. i believe that they won a top award at the fraternity's most recent convention. in my estimation, that qualifies them as a top chapter.

Having the most pledges, or the biggest house doesn't make you a top chapter on a campus in any way....and winning awards from your Nationals doesn't either.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Having the most pledges...doesn't make you a top chapter on a campus in any way...

I think this is arguable. Sorry, but bad chapters don't usually get large pledge classes, let alone the biggest on campus. I think your take on this example demonstrates that "top" is very subjective.

[FSUZeta]

would you please list what criteria determines a campus as classically southern?

[shinerbock]

Well, Mac, what we would consider the top chapters on campus are probably a little different from what some people on here would like. We should probably tone it down, or else they might want to infiltrate whats left of classic southern collegiate life.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

I think this is arguable. Sorry, but bad chapters don't usually get large pledge classes, let alone the biggest on campus. I think your take on this example demonstrates that "top" is very subjective.

Yeah, bad chapters often do get huge pledge classes.....for the sake of increasing their numbers. This is called a blanket bid.....where they give everyone a bid that walks through their door. We usually have a very good idea about what guys we are taking way before formal rush even starts. Go to any top house in the South and I would bet you a good amount of money they already know who they are taking during the summer before the start of the year. Obviously some guys will come through during rush that are taken (out of state guys and such), but for the most part......it is already decided.

[sdsuchelle]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

I will straight up tell you that we could not have black members and be a top chapter. There is no possible way. In majority white campuses (especially Southern), blacks would scare away the girls. Look at the bottom tier at the campus. The (in my opinion) worst chapters on campus include blacks Sigma Nu, Sig Ep, and Pike. That is third tier. Every one of them has one to two black members. There are no blacks in the 2nd tier and above. Therefore, I will tell you as a studied fact/opinion that there is no way a black person could be taken and continue being a top tier fraternity.

That really depresses me. At my school, it seems that all of the IFC fraternities have at least a few black members.

There isn't a large black community on my campus, but from the black men I've known, they just felt more comfortable joining a multicultural or historically black fraternity. Like, they didn't even consider trying to rush IFC. I don't think that SDSU is a racist school at all, and most of the IFC members would be totally cool with a black member and treat them like any other rush candidate.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by sdsuchelle

That really depresses me. At my school, it seems that all of the IFC fraternities have at least a few black members.

There isn't a large black community on my campus, but from the black men I've known, they just felt more comfortable joining a multicultural or historically black fraternity. Like, they didn't even consider trying to rush IFC. I don't think that SDSU is a racist school at all, and most of the IFC members would be totally cool with a black member and treat them like any other rush candidate.

You also live in California.

Are you kidding me with the racist thing? Shit...are we know labeling schools as "racist" because their IFC fraternities don't have blacks??

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by macallan25

This is a little ridiculous/overboard. You can't blame recruitment decisions in today's time on our founding fathers. Lets take my fraternity, SAE....we were the only fraternity founded in the ante-bellum South....370 of our original 400 members fought for the Confederates. Our 8 founding fathers were from very upperclass families and were all officers for the Confederates.....hell, one of them is believed to have been the very first casualty. Blacks were slaves at the time, save a small number of them, do you honestly think there would have been any reason for an original SAE to consider a black man for membership?? No, absolutely not. They didn't "take anything for granted"....they operated according to how the lifestyle was at the time. You can say the same thing about Kappa Alpha....their spiritual founding father was ROBERT E. LEE....i'm sure black men post Civil War were just jumping at the oppurtunity to join.



Can you not, atleast, open yourself to the fact that a great majority of blacks at large Southern institutions have absolutely nothing in common with large, white, top fraternities??

Uh, if you re-read my comments, I think you'll see that your reading in some stuff that isn't there. What's the difference between taking something for granted and operating according to how your lifestyle is?

In either case, I wish founders had been more forwards thinking, but they weren't.

Yes, I'm open to the possiblity that the great majority of people in general have nothing in common with large, white, top fraternities, and Black students would fall into that too.

Are you telling me that there's not a single guy on your campus who attending high school with one of you, took advanced classes, has college educated parents, is affluent, and with the one exception of all the clubs he and his family haven't been invited to join simply because they aren't white, is pretty much like you all? Or are you looking at membership in the most exclusive clubs, rather than character, as your primary membership criterion?

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

Are you telling me that there's not a single guy on your campus who attending high school with one of you, took advanced classes, has college educated parents, is affluent, and with the one exception of all the clubs he and his family haven't been invited to join simply because they aren't white, is pretty much like you all? Or are you looking at membership in the most exclusive clubs, rather than character, as your primary membership criterion?

Hahahaha, I really don't know what to say to this. No...our fraternity only accepts guys that are members of country clubs. Are you serious with this? For the third time...WE EXTEND BIDS TO GUYS THAT SHARE OUR COMMON INTERESTS AND ARE LIKE MINDED. I went to High School with plenty of Black guys and such who took hard classes, had college educated parents, were affluent, etc........did we have anything in common.....not really....other than that we played sports together...and saw each other at paties every now and then.

[Elephant Walk]

i am in no way a cheerleader for pi kappa alpha at fsu, however, you are gravely mistaken when you say that pike is not a top chapter at fsu. they have the athletes, the movers and shakers, the faces, have the most members, have the alumni support, the largest house, have the largest pledge class,etc. i believe that they won a top award at the fraternity's most recent convention. in my estimation, that qualifies them as a top chapter.

Winning top awards from the nationals is the death knell. When you consider having the athletes (no suprise) as a good thing, there is another. Either way, it's florida, it doesn't matter.

[PeppyGPhiB]

I went to college in California, so I won't bother trying to compare greek life on my campus with that of the south other than to say that all of the chapters on my campus were very racially diverse and NPHC did not even exist at my school.

But, I have a question for the southerners, purely out of curiosity. Is the segregation (self-selected or otherwise) limited to just blacks vs. whites, or are there other racial minorities that are also excluded (or exclude themselves) from NPC/NIC recruitment? For example, in Calif. many chapters have white, black, asian and hispanic members. If an asian or hispanic were to go through recruitment at your school, would he/she receive the same treatment as an african american?