Racial Conflict

[Drolefille]

I wouldn't say most. It's not national policy for any IFC/NIC/NPC GLO and while some chapters may do so, (as per Elephant Walk) many campuses extend bids to rushees regardless of race.

[PrettyBoy]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I wouldn't say most. It's not national policy for any IFC/NIC/NPC GLO and while some chapters may do so, (as per Elephant Walk) many campuses extend bids to rushees regardless of race.

Well, I can't say you're wrong, but the reason why I disagree is because so many white clubs and organizations still do this today. My uncle is a member of this really rich country club and when my dad and I went in there together with my uncle, we all got looked at like we didn't belong there. The staff there that know my uncle were great but some of the customers looked at us like African Americans aren't supposed to have any money. I've read books that that said that many white frats and sororities exclude blacks. So, again I have to disagree with you. Some alow it but that's very few.

[Drolefille]

Well, all I can say is that books are outdated.

What region of the country are you in? I know that attitudes in the south are much different from other regions. Us Midwesterners don't tend to see things in quite the same way sometimes. I can tell you that every GLO on my campus (5 sororities and 13 fraternities) had non-white members of every variety. Not bad for a fairly non-diverse campus. And they were by no means "tokens" either. At the same time, the NPHC orgs didn't have a very strong on campus presence except maybe through the BSA. (They weren't recognized campus organizations and didn't use campus facilities)

While that's just a small sample, it seems to hold true based on other people's experiences.
I don't deny there is and was discrimination, but I don't want you to have the perception that all of us sorority girls and fraternity boys share the views of people like Elephant Walk...

[PrettyBoy]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Well, all I can say is that books are outdated.

What region of the country are you in? I know that attitudes in the south are much different from other regions. Us Midwesterners don't tend to see things in quite the same way sometimes. I can tell you that every GLO on my campus (5 sororities and 13 fraternities) had non-white members of every variety. Not bad for a fairly non-diverse campus. And they were by no means "tokens" either. At the same time, the NPHC orgs didn't have a very strong on campus presence except maybe through the BSA. (They weren't recognized campus organizations and didn't use campus facilities)

While that's just a small sample, it seems to hold true based on other people's experiences.
I don't deny there is and was discrimination, but I don't want you to have the perception that all of us sorority girls and fraternity boys share the views of people like Elephant Walk...

Drolefille, you make great points, but one of the books I was reading was only written about 4 years ago. That's very current. I live in the northeast, and my parents were both born and raised in the south, so I know how it is. Elephantwalk is right. Racism is still happening in these organizations. Think about it, all of their founders would have never let anyone black in there organizations, and I know that when most of these organizations were founded a lot of African American weren't attending these schools because they weren't allowed to. But if they were allowed to attend your founders as well as the rest of them would have never allowed this to happen, based on one simple thing. The color of someones skin. How ridiculous is that. It's still happening. I think that's great that it doesn't happen as much where you pledged at, but I still think most of them still exclude blacks. I went to a historically black college and there were a few whites that attended and one of the guys wanted to join my frat. Everyone liked him, and we couldn't think of any reason to cut him. It was his senior year so he decided not to, but we didn't look at his color. Our founders would have turned over in their graves if we excluded him based on his color. He would have made a great addition to Kappa.

[Elephant Walk]

In many instances I agree, but you know that social class is just a proxy for race in this country.

Agreed. It's more a point of money, not race. That's why we also hate white trash, guidos (new money usually), and other white sects.

[ForeverRoses]

So Elephant Walk, let me get this straight. Your fraternity chapter only offers bids to old money, white, southern boys that allow themselves to be hazed? Do you use religion as a qualifier as well? (only Protestants, etc.).

It is your chapter and if that's the way you want to do it, then it is your right (well, not the hazing part but that is a different thread). It is just foreign to me- I went to school in the midwest where even the traditionally southern fraternities had diversity. As for the sororities, I don't remember a single time when race was brought up during membership selection.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by ForeverRoses

So Elephant Walk, let me get this straight. Your fraternity chapter only offers bids to old money, white, southern boys that allow themselves to be hazed? Do you use religion as a qualifier as well? (only Protestants, etc.).

It is your chapter and if that's the way you want to do it, then it is your right (well, not the hazing part but that is a different thread). It is just foreign to me- I went to school in the midwest where even the traditionally southern fraternities had diversity. As for the sororities, I don't remember a single time when race was brought up during membership selection.

The Midwest and North are completely different than the South......you have to understand that. I wouldn't have exactly put it like ElephantWalk, but if a chapter wants to bid only a certain type of guy from certain areas (like most top Southern chapters do) then it is their right to do so.

[EGAOPi]

Originally Posted by ForeverRoses

So Elephant Walk, let me get this straight. Your fraternity chapter only offers bids to old money, white, southern boys that allow themselves to be hazed? Do you use religion as a qualifier as well? (only Protestants, etc.).

It is your chapter and if that's the way you want to do it, then it is your right (well, not the hazing part but that is a different thread). It is just foreign to me- I went to school in the midwest where even the traditionally southern fraternities had diversity. As for the sororities, I don't remember a single time when race was brought up during membership selection.

I agree with you about seeing diversity in traditionally southern fraternities. I have seen several black people in Kappa Alpha Order.

[Minerva's Girl]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

That's why we also hate white trash, guidos (new money usually), and other white sects.

It is scary to me that you think "hating" people is something to be proud of. At least you're honest though---I guess.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

That's why we also hate white trash, guidos (new money usually), and other white sects.

Which is funny to me because only the people who make up the rules through cultural capital can define their own trashiness as acceptable and "high class" whereas the trashiness of others is deemed "low class."



I've been watching wealthy white families act like trash for much of my life. Binge drinking, rowdy public displays, and more. Basically, things they wouldn't do in the streets of our quiet neighborhoods (although many were alcoholics behind closed doors) but they would do them on Family Weekends or in general public areas. Embarassing.

[shinerbock]

I just don't understand why people view it as a problem. Everyone excludes. Black people often segregate themselves, and I fail to see anything wrong with that. They often have more in common with other black people, and share common interests and goals. I just think its stupid to go out of your way to achieve diversity. Once again diversity =/= mixed races. You can have plenty of diversity in an all white or all black group. If your group wants to have a lot of different cultures and view points in it, go for it, enjoy. As for my fraternity, the reason we joined a fraternity is to be around people with common interests. If I wanted to be in a multi-cultural environment with a host of viewpoints, ideologies and faiths, I'd have joined....THE WORLD.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PrettyBoy

Drolefille, you make great points, but one of the books I was reading was only written about 4 years ago. That's very current. I live in the northeast, and my parents were both born and raised in the south, so I know how it is. Elephantwalk is right. Racism is still happening in these organizations. Think about it, all of their founders would have never let anyone black in there organizations, and I know that when most of these organizations were founded a lot of African American weren't attending these schools because they weren't allowed to. But if they were allowed to attend your founders as well as the rest of them would have never allowed this to happen, based on one simple thing. The color of someones skin. How ridiculous is that. It's still happening. I think that's great that it doesn't happen as much where you pledged at, but I still think most of them still exclude blacks. I went to a historically black college and there were a few whites that attended and one of the guys wanted to join my frat. Everyone liked him, and we couldn't think of any reason to cut him. It was his senior year so he decided not to, but we didn't look at his color. Our founders would have turned over in their graves if we excluded him based on his color. He would have made a great addition to Kappa.

Unfortunately many of our founders were rascist, passively if not actively. However I think we feel that if they were alive today, they would have changed along with society. The women we pledge and initiate uphold our values no matter their color. I guess I just take issue with the word "most" when I can't see that being the case.

Out of curiousity, what do you think of a self segregated Greek system? One where there aren't any racial restrictions, but the black students go specifically to NPHC groups and never even look at NPC/IFC and the white students only consider NPC/IFC. Do you feel like somewthing is going wrong there or that something is going right? (This is just a question not somepoint I'm making, I'm curious)

Sometimes I think the perception is that "they" (being the outsider to whichever group) wouldn't be accepted, so they never try. But I don't know.

[PrettyBoy]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Unfortunately many of our founders were rascist, passively if not actively. However I think we feel that if they were alive today, they would have changed along with society. The women we pledge and initiate uphold our values no matter their color. I guess I just take issue with the word "most" when I can't see that being the case.

Out of curiousity, what do you think of a self segregated Greek system? One where there aren't any racial restrictions, but the black students go specifically to NPHC groups and never even look at NPC/IFC and the white students only consider NPC/IFC. Do you feel like somewthing is going wrong there or that something is going right? (This is just a question not somepoint I'm making, I'm curious)

Sometimes I think the perception is that "they" (being the outsider to whichever group) wouldn't be accepted, so they never try. But I don't know.

I don't think anything is wrong with a black man/woman going directly to the NPHC without even looking at the IFC/NPC and the same thing goes for a white man/woman not even looking at the NPHC. What I have a problem with is if a NPHC/IFC/NPC GLO denied someone based on the same reasons your founders would have denied a man/woman over 100 years ago. If an interest is denied based on grades or whatever reason it may be that's fine, but to deny a human being based on color alone, that's insane and makes no sense whatsoever. No disrespect to your organization or any of the NPC or IFC groups, b/c I have looked at your organizations history as well as the rest of them, just to expand my mind, but I think if your founders were still living maybe a few would have changed with the times which I highly doubt, but for the most part what I'm trying to say is your founders as well as the rest of the NPC/IFC groups would still for sure deny a man/woman based on color.

[UGAalum94]

I think many of the NPC or IFC founders were pathetically blind to the full equality of Black people. I don't think they thought about the inclusions of people of different races at all. They went with what they were familiar with, which was other white people. It would be interesting to know how many groups ever addressed the race of members before they published non-discrimination statements. I think most founders took it for granted that the members would be white so much that they didn't even mention race. Most probably attended segregated institutions, so the possibility of Black members didn't occure to them.

Today, I think the majority of members of NPC and IFC groups are/would be proud to have Black members. The problem is that a few people who are concerned with being elitist tell themselves that it's better not to have Black members at all than it is to take people who aren't a "perfect fit." The fact that being Black is the only thing keeping a pnm from being a perfect fit never crosses their minds. The problem is magnified because other members and other groups aren't brave enough to deviate from what the elites do.