Michigan's Prop 2 to ban affirmative action

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by macallan25

I would think that people appying to schools and programs with very limited acceptances would have an argument.

But it is "that one" school--like I will only apply to Michigan because they can barely hang on at #2 in the BCS...

Or, I am only applying to SEC schools because they have the better football teams...

But what's up with the ACC? Wake Forest beat that ass...

Then look at Boise St. for the WAC...

[shinerbock]

No AKA, I'm saying that you saying people like us shouldnt care about who gets admitted where how, is a ridiculous statement. If this is true, then why should I care about anything that doesn't directly affect me?

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

No AKA, I'm saying that you saying people like us shouldnt care about who gets admitted where how, is a ridiculous statement. If this is true, then why should I care about anything that doesn't directly affect me?

How come my statements must be ridiculous to you?

Do you really think someone else's university admission DIRECTLY affects Y-O-U?

If you do, then what DIRECT circumstances have caused Y-O-U to think that way?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

How come my statements must be ridiculous to you?

Do you really think someone else's university admission DIRECTLY affects Y-O-U?

If you do, then what DIRECT circumstances have caused Y-O-U to think that way?

Shinerbock is right. It doesn't have to affect him directly for him to have an opinion and concern.

Following your logic none of us should support affirmative action initiatives, EEOC, or social welfare programs if we've never knowingly been at the receiving end of discrimination or hardship based on race, class, and/or gender. Of course most of us are or have been targets for discrimination at some level based on race, class and/or gender so not being conscious of that fact doesn't erase it.

In your defense, I believe you are essentially saying that people shouldn't be so passionate about eliminating affirmative action just because a relatively small number of white people across the country claim reverse-discrimination. So unless the anti-AffAct whites can PROVE that they are one of the relatively few who have been passed up for a less qualified minority applicant, or there's evidence to suggest a high probability of that occuring, what's the issue? Afraid of the status quo crumbling and no longer being able to opportunity hoard? Whites are still the majority and there is no real threat of whites' missing out of opportunities because of the existence of affirmative action. White males are still at the top of most companies (which has some benefit for white women just like gender-based affirmative action does) and most work environments and promotion opportunities across the country are almost exclusively white.

[shinerbock]

And to be honest, I'm not really "passionate" about it. I think its wrong, but it doesn't keep me up at night. That being said, maybe it could one day.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Shinerbock is right. It doesn't have to affect him directly for him to have an opinion and concern.

Well, you know what "they" say about opinions... I am not asking for an opinion, I really want to know what his thinking, the epistemology of his thinking, how come he really thinks that. I could care less about his opinion.

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Following your logic none of us should support affirmative action initiatives, EEOC, or social welfare programs if we've never knowingly been at the receiving end of discrimination or hardship based on race, class, and/or gender. Of course most of us are or have been targets for discrimination at some level based on race, class and/or gender so not being conscious of that fact doesn't erase it.

I fail to see how I came to that logic. That is your logic and that makes you putting words into my mouth. I am not asking why, I am asking how. End result. Based on what I am seeing in health care disparities alone dictates in the 3 states I have resided in suggests the outcomes of ending affirmative action or choices to attend school... Right now, the way I see it, the end of affirmative action causes massive increases in poor health outcomes. The rate of occurrence is within 2 years. All historical ethnic and immigrant groups regardless of income status. Also, holds true for disabled persons.

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

In your defense, I believe you are essentially saying that people shouldn't be so passionate about eliminating affirmative action just because a relatively small number of white people across the country claim reverse-discrimination. So unless the anti-AffAct whites can PROVE that they are one of the relatively few who have been passed up for a less qualified minority applicant, or there's evidence to suggest a high probability of that occuring, what's the issue? Afraid of the status quo crumbling and no longer being able to opportunity hoard? Whites are still the majority and there is no real threat of whites' missing out of opportunities because of the existence of affirmative action. White males are still at the top of most companies (which has some benefit for white women just like gender-based affirmative action does) and most work environments and promotion opportunities across the country are almost exclusively white.

I think I am saying something different. I think people in the majority, mainly whites and some Asians, should be passionate about ending Affirmative Action.

Really, this issue all boils down to money and who is making it and why.

As long as little Black boys are running in those games, then that is why they need to be admitted. Oh the fear that these same kids desire to become a physician or engineer to not only better themselves but also their communities...

The look are the misperceived "balance of power". Let's call it like we see it. Most folks who ending college admissions affirmative action would affect are Hispanic/Latinos. African Americans and Native Americans are a non-factor (<1%-3%) in some states... And you may as well forget the disabled in those numbers.

Folks are not really as to why "they" dislike Affirmative Action.

Well, the repercussions are not giving a dayum about a sector or population that becomes a public health hazard and we all, humanity, have to "clean it up".

The ravages of Hurricane Katrina tells you what happens when you actively fail to give ALL people a chance...

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

The ravages of Hurricane Katrina tells you what happens when you actively fail to give ALL people a chance...

What does this have to do with anything?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Well, you know what "they" say about opinions... I am not asking for an opinion, I really want to know what his thinking, the epistemology of his thinking, how come he really thinks that. I could care less about his opinion.

If you're asking for shinerbock to articulate a sophisticated methodology in determining why he feels affirmative action should be eliminated, he probably will not be able to do so. When people oppose affirmative action for the reasons that he does, it isn't about some measurable outcome or socially significant negative effect of affirmative action.

Then again, a less presumptuous approach to epistemology is similar to the standpoint epistemology that Patricia Hill Collins and others wrote about. Everyone comes with a particular standpoint that shapes their perceptions, opinions, research design, and so forth. He told you his opinion which translates to how he came to know what he knows (epistemology) within the context of what he knows. You don't agree with his opinion and you never will, but you can't dismiss it as unsubstantiated fluff when he has clearly said why he thinks what he thinks.

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

I fail to see how I came to that logic. That is your logic and that makes you putting words into my mouth. I am not asking why, I am asking how. End result. Based on what I am seeing in health care disparities alone dictates in the 3 states I have resided in suggests the outcomes of ending affirmative action or choices to attend school... Right now, the way I see it, the end of affirmative action causes massive increases in poor health outcomes. The rate of occurrence is within 2 years. All historical ethnic and immigrant groups regardless of income status. Also, holds true for disabled persons.

I think I am saying something different. I think people in the majority, mainly whites and some Asians, should be passionate about ending Affirmative Action.

Really, this issue all boils down to money and who is making it and why.

As long as little Black boys are running in those games, then that is why they need to be admitted. Oh the fear that these same kids desire to become a physician or engineer to not only better themselves but also their communities...

The look are the misperceived "balance of power". Let's call it like we see it. Most folks who ending college admissions affirmative action would affect are Hispanic/Latinos. African Americans and Native Americans are a non-factor (<1%-3%) in some states... And you may as well forget the disabled in those numbers.

Folks are not really as to why "they" dislike Affirmative Action.

Well, the repercussions are not giving a dayum about a sector or population that becomes a public health hazard and we all, humanity, have to "clean it up".

The ravages of Hurricane Katrina tells you what happens when you actively fail to give ALL people a chance...

No one is trying to put words in your mouth. I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and help you to communicate your points.

It reads like you are saying something similar to what I'm saying but in a different, perhaps less coherent, way. Yes, majority groups should be in opposition if it threatens their opportunity hoarding--if they don't come from a utilitarian framework. No, majority groups should not be in opposition just because of some assumed and socially insignificant negative outcome (if they can't explain WHY AffAct should be done away with, it shouldn't be done away with and opponents should go on about their business because why a black man got into some university typically will not affect them anyway).

[shinerbock]

I saw no indication that you were asking me for my rationale in deciding affirmative action should end. If thats what you want, say so, and after this semester ends I'll be glad to respond...

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

If you're asking for shinerbock to articulate a sophisticated methodology in determining why he feels affirmative action should be eliminated, he probably will not be able to do so. When people oppose affirmative action for the reasons that he does, it isn't about some measurable outcome or socially significant negative effect of affirmative action.

Then again, a less presumptuous approach to epistemology is similar to the standpoint epistemology that Patricia Hill Collins and others wrote about. Everyone comes with a particular standpoint that shapes their perceptions, opinions, research design, and so forth. He told you his opinion which translates to how he came to know what he knows (epistemology) within the context of what he knows. You don't agree with his opinion and you never will, but you can't dismiss it as unsubstantiated fluff when he has clearly said why he thinks what he thinks.

I have not seen any satisfactory articulation as to why Shinerbock THINKS AffAct should be eliminated. I could care less about how he feels about this subject and I probably already know his feelings as well as a few other folks here.

My career is about facts and statistics. That is my mindset and my modus operandi at all times. I need histories and "not what I feel about it today" or "opinions on it". What I deal with in my line of work is exactly what I can see. So, it is very difficult for me to make any inferences unless I am able to experimentally test it out based on a hypothesis.

With that being said, I have not been given facts or stats. It is not my opinion when I say things I do say unless I say IMHO or IMO. Period. Somebody has published and written this information on an US or state government agency website or it is trade literature...

No one has given me any trade literature, or US or state government agency website on the after-affects of ending Affirmative Action. At least for California, these sites should have 10 year data...

I do have the Washington State Health Outcomes data for my state. Almost all underrepresented minority groups have the worst health outcome for every measurement taken. These data are piss-poor for some groups in this state...

So my questions are "why are there huge health disparities" in the United States generally? What causes them to be so poor? The National Institutes of Health Roadmap Initiatives are requesting various research groups address this issue. One of the items they suggest as well as the University of Washington's School of Medicine website lists is that if there were more people of color as physicians to treat their communities, there would be less health disparities...

Is that true? I dunno? But let us look at the data to see... Well, if our kids are discouraged from even applying for undergraduate work, how will they be able to move ahead for graduate/professional work? Sure, there will be the <0.025% kid that succeeds every 5-10 years, but in the absence of a concerted effort among faculty and staff, there will be no one to shore up these kids as they matriculate...

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

No one is trying to put words in your mouth. I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and help you to communicate your points.

It reads like you are saying something similar to what I'm saying but in a different, perhaps less coherent, way. Yes, majority groups should be in opposition if it threatens their opportunity hoarding--if they don't come from a utilitarian framework. No, majority groups should not be in opposition just because of some assumed and socially insignificant negative outcome (if they can't explain WHY AffAct should be done away with, it shouldn't be done away with and opponents should go on about their business because why a black man got into some university typically will not affect them anyway).

Thank you and I appreciate your insight and compassion. As much as folks love to share their "opinions" with us, like I said, what are the facts? We can revolve around this iceberg's tip never going in depth to the core of the issue or we could try to learn something from each other. I prefer the latter. But hey, what do I know? I am just some hack trying free minds here. I have been teaching college student close to 12 years now and I like to think that I know how to get them to learn complex issues... I guess I am too much into the Socratic Method...

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

How come my statements must be ridiculous to you?

Do you really think someone else's university admission DIRECTLY affects Y-O-U?

If you do, then what DIRECT circumstances have caused Y-O-U to think that way?

I believe he is saying that it is ridiculous...because one could definitely infer from your latest posts that none of us should really care about anything that doesn't directly affect us. Doing away with or putting into practice gay marriage and abortion doesn't really affect me at all......but it doesn't mean that i'm not entitled to an opinion or concern on the matter.