Republican Morality

[shinerbock]

AX, you still haven't posted your sources. From MSNBC...

Haggard, who had been NAE president since 2003, has participated in conference calls with White House staffers and lobbied Congress last year on Supreme Court nominees.

My best friend participates in conference calls with Karl Rove, I don't really see him as having an substantial connections to the administration or its policies. The simple fact is, trying to associate this guy with Bush is just juvenile and absurd. He's a Christian leader, and Bush meets with tons of them. He doesn't work for the White House, and even if he did, so what?

As for him being a leader, I think he probably is a leader of his church and whatever that group was. However, that group likely doesn't represent the majority of evangelical Christians I imagine, and therefore I highly doubt people could legitimately claim that he represents the majority of evangelical Christians. I fail to see how his conduct reflects upon anyone but himself.

[AXEAM]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

AX, you still haven't posted your sources. From MSNBC...

Haggard, who had been NAE president since 2003, has participated in conference calls with White House staffers and lobbied Congress last year on Supreme Court nominees.

My best friend participates in conference calls with Karl Rove, I don't really see him as having an substantial connections to the administration or its policies. The simple fact is, trying to associate this guy with Bush is just juvenile and absurd. He's a Christian leader, and Bush meets with tons of them. He doesn't work for the White House, and even if he did, so what?

As for him being a leader, I think he probably is a leader of his church and whatever that group was. However, that group likely doesn't represent the majority of evangelical Christians I imagine, and therefore I highly doubt people could legitimately claim that he represents the majority of evangelical Christians. I fail to see how his conduct reflects upon anyone but himself.

I don't have time to look up the sources again...just do a yahoo search on Ted Haggard's connections to the White House.

[shinerbock]

I did, and thats what I got. Call this guy a hypocrite all you want, but trying to drag the administration through the mud on this is simply absurd.

[AXEAM]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I did, and thats what I got. Call this guy a hypocrite all you want, but trying to drag the administration through the mud on this is simply absurd.

Funny in the Rocky Mountain times and other yahoo news search I got that he made weekly conference calls to the White House where he consulted w/ members of the White house on several issues. ( issues I mentioned in my post above.) not saying you're lying but.....the facts say different....

[Wolfman]

The Haggard is sad (and tragic) on many fronts. The discourse has occluded some real interesting points:the real danger and ambivalence of the political realm for believers,and the implicit pastoral theology that undergirds many sectors of Christianity.

1) It's no accident that before Jesus was sent on his mission he was put through a time of trial, facing the wiles of Satan, not some cartoonish figure bit the spirit of this Age that dominates through the deceiving and appealing use of power, prestige,worldly wealth and hubris. Jesus faced this in his context, being promised the oikumene ("world," that, is the Roman Empire) if Jesus worshipped him. We live in this Age and we are fallen, whether "saved and filled with the Holy Spirit," atheist or Satanist;thus no one is immune from being caught up and blinded by worldly power and one's focus being taken away from God as one's life-giving and life-sustaining power in all aspects of life. If there's a maxin that should be in the Bible it is the one that says, 'Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely'. For Rev. Haggard, who started off as one motivated by God's Spirit and his person and ministry born of God's power, ends up viewing himself and thus his actions as an extension of his public self as Evangelical leader and leader in the culture wars. Then one cares more about Machiavellian concerns and not about the unity of person and persona,the integration of which in the acceptance of our common humanity in our falleness and absolute need for God's mercy everyday and, by extension, a more generous view of humanity at large as the recipient of God's mercy. Evangelicals want to exercise worldly power to effect godly change but it's a very dangerous and risky venture to them, like Homer Simpson working at the nuclear plant.

2) Haggard confesses that he has some life-long struggles that he warred with. It's a tragedy that,evidently, he did not have the non-judgmental pastoral support system to lay open his life to help him in his struggles;therefore his public persona as leader and the American "Great Man" image of
perfection which many Christians ascribe to took over and had to be sustained. But his real person is still there and there is an attempt to segment one's personality which will fail. It's not simply about wrong choices, lies and deception. In reality,the "acting out" is often the result of the pressure to maintain this hoax and the lies and deception to cover the false self. The greatest sin,in a sense, here is hubris. This way of being is more in line with the pretense and idolatry of Roman Imperial hubris and the cult of the emperors, which was both political and religious. The way of the cross and resurrection is diametrically opposed to this false Christian triumphalist vision of human personhood.Read 2 Corinthians 10-12,where Paul, living in light of the life of Jesus, boasts in his anti-resume of weakness, over against the so-called super apostles who claim to wield God-like powers through the Holy Spirit so that the Corinthians (and they!) see them as they would see the ruling powers of the Greco-Roman world,but in Jesus.To Paul this is anti-Christ.Paul boasts of his weakness so that God's power can rest on him, that he would know Jesus in his suffering so that GOD would raise him,not that he would receive worldly acclaim and power. We actually need to read and critically reflect upon the Bible prayerfully and honestly. This is the tragedy of this situation.

[Wolfman]

The Haggard is sad (and tragic) on many fronts. The discourse has occluded some real interesting points:the real danger and ambivalence of the political realm for believers,and the implicit pastoral theology that undergirds many sectors of Christianity.

1) It's no accident that before Jesus was sent on his mission he was put through a time of trial, facing the wiles of Satan, not some cartoonish figure bit the spirit of this Age that dominates through the deceiving and appealing use of power, prestige,worldly wealth and hubris. Jesus faced this in his context, being promised the oikumene ("world," that, is the Roman Empire) if Jesus worshipped him. We live in this Age and we are fallen, whether "saved and filled with the Holy Spirit," atheist or Satanist;thus no one is immune from being caught up and blinded by worldly power and one's focus being taken away from God as one's life-giving and life-sustaining power in all aspects of life. If there's a maxin that should be in the Bible it is the one that says, 'Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely'. For Rev. Haggard, who started off as one motivated by God's Spirit and his person and ministry born of God's power, ends up viewing himself and thus his actions as an extension of his public self as Evangelical leader and leader in the culture wars. Then one cares more about Machiavellian concerns and not about the unity of person and persona,the integration of which in the acceptance of our common humanity in our falleness and absolute need for God's mercy everyday and, by extension, a more generous view of humanity at large as the recipient of God's mercy. Evangelicals want to exercise worldly power to effect godly change but it's a very dangerous and risky venture to them, like Homer Simpson working at the nuclear plant.

2) Haggard confesses that he has some life-long struggles that he warred with. It's a tragedy that,evidently, he did not have the non-judgmental pastoral support system to lay open his life to help him in his struggles;therefore his public persona as leader and the American "Great Man" image of
perfection which many Christians ascribe to took over and had to be sustained. But his real person is still there and there is an attempt to segment one's personality which will fail. It's not simply about wrong choices, lies and deception. In reality,the "acting out" is often the result of the pressure to maintain this hoax and the lies and deception to cover the false self. The greatest sin,in a sense, here is hubris. This way of being is more in line with the pretense and idolatry of Roman Imperial hubris and the cult of the emperors, which was both political and religious. The way of the cross and resurrection is diametrically opposed to this false Christian triumphalist vision of human personhood.Read 2 Corinthians 10-12,where Paul, living in light of the life of Jesus, boasts in his anti-resume of weakness, over against the so-called super apostles who claim to wield God-like powers through the Holy Spirit so that the Corinthians (and they!) see them as they would see the ruling powers of the Greco-Roman world,but in Jesus.To Paul this is anti-Christ.Paul boasts of his weakness so that God's power can rest on him, that he would know Jesus in his suffering so that GOD would raise him,not that he would receive worldly acclaim and power. We actually need to read and critically reflect upon the Bible prayerfully and honestly. This is the tragedy of this situation.

[AXEAM]

Originally Posted by Wolfman

The Haggard is sad (and tragic) on many fronts. The discourse has occluded some real interesting points:the real danger and ambivalence of the political realm for believers,and the implicit pastoral theology that undergirds many sectors of Christianity.

1) It's no accident that before Jesus was sent on his mission he was put through a time of trial, facing the wiles of Satan, not some cartoonish figure bit the spirit of this Age that dominates through the deceiving and appealing use of power, prestige,worldly wealth and hubris. Jesus faced this in his context, being promised the oikumene ("world," that, is the Roman Empire) if Jesus worshipped him. We live in this Age and we are fallen, whether "saved and filled with the Holy Spirit," atheist or Satanist;thus no one is immune from being caught up and blinded by worldly power and one's focus being taken away from God as one's life-giving and life-sustaining power in all aspects of life. If there's a maxin that should be in the Bible it is the one that says, 'Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely'. For Rev. Haggard, who started off as one motivated by God's Spirit and his person and ministry born of God's power, ends up viewing himself and thus his actions as an extension of his public self as Evangelical leader and leader in the culture wars. Then one cares more about Machiavellian concerns and not about the unity of person and persona,the integration of which in the acceptance of our common humanity in our falleness and absolute need for God's mercy everyday and, by extension, a more generous view of humanity at large as the recipient of God's mercy. Evangelicals want to exercise worldly power to effect godly change but it's a very dangerous and risky venture to them, like Homer Simpson working at the nuclear plant.

2) Haggard confesses that he has some life-long struggles that he warred with. It's a tragedy that,evidently, he did not have the non-judgmental pastoral support system to lay open his life to help him in his struggles;therefore his public persona as leader and the American "Great Man" image of
perfection which many Christians ascribe to took over and had to be sustained. But his real person is still there and there is an attempt to segment one's personality which will fail. It's not simply about wrong choices, lies and deception. In reality,the "acting out" is often the result of the pressure to maintain this hoax and the lies and deception to cover the false self. The greatest sin,in a sense, here is hubris. This way of being is more in line with the pretense and idolatry of Roman Imperial hubris and the cult of the emperors, which was both political and religious. The way of the cross and resurrection is diametrically opposed to this false Christian triumphalist vision of human personhood.Read 2 Corinthians 10-12,where Paul, living in light of the life of Jesus, boasts in his anti-resume of weakness, over against the so-called super apostles who claim to wield God-like powers through the Holy Spirit so that the Corinthians (and they!) see them as they would see the ruling powers of the Greco-Roman world,but in Jesus.To Paul this is anti-Christ.Paul boasts of his weakness so that God's power can rest on him, that he would know Jesus in his suffering so that GOD would raise him,not that he would receive worldly acclaim and power. We actually need to read and critically reflect upon the Bible prayerfully and honestly. This is the tragedy of this situation.

This is a very good post Wolf, the problem is as you stated when evangeclicals try to use worldly power to effect Godly change.
It just doesn't work that way, leave until Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and until God the things that are of God,s.

[shinerbock]

AX, I didn't go to yahoo, i did a search on MSNBC (not a conservative network, btw) and got an article that said that. Anybody trying to connect this situation to Bush is reaching, horribly.

[AXEAM]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

AX, I didn't go to yahoo, i did a search on MSNBC (not a conservative network, btw) and got an article that said that. Anybody trying to connect this situation to Bush is reaching, horribly.

Expand your search man.

[shinerbock]

I searched several different things on Google, and got almost entirely liberal blogs. The only reputable things I got were from Time, which basically only stated that perhaps the scandal could have a negative impact on evangelical turnout. There is simply nothing here that has much at all to do with the administration, other than the fact that Haggard was fairly popular among certain christians and groups, and that Haggard supported Bush and lobbied Congress.