An Open Letter To Fox News About 'Boobs On The Ground'

[SOM]

"Men would never insult and demean a fellow servicemember; boys think saying the word ‘boobs’ is funny."

50+ veteran members of our community call out classless, sexist comments from Fox News contributors Eric Bolling and Greg Gutfeld.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/an...er-to-fox-news

[DrPhil]

I respect and appreciate this letter.

Let the record show, there are millions of people who consider themselves "men" who use patriarchal, sexist, and misogynist language.

Let the record also show, it unfortunately is not true that "men would never insult and demean a fellow service member." Perhaps they are tightening their definition of "men" for the sake of this letter but insulting and demeaning of fellow service members has always happened in the military: hazing; patriarchy, sexism, and misogyny; rape and sexual assault; heterosexism and homophobia.

Don't get idealized, romanticized, and amnesia to prove a point to Fox News.

[als463]

People who always feel the need to write an "open letter" are far more offensive to me than any stupid statement made on television by a reporter, celebrity, etc. I'm so tired of seeing everyone feel the need to write letters to Gwyneth Paltrow because she said she works harder than other working mothers, or to Kanye because he did/ said something equally stupid. We get it. You're offended. This is just someone trying to get their 15 minutes of fame by riding on famous people and their dumb stunts.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by als463

People who always feel the need to write an "open letter" are far more offensive to me than any stupid statement made on television by a reporter, celebrity, etc. I'm so tired of seeing everyone feel the need to write letters to Gwyneth Paltrow because she said she works harder than other working mothers, or to Kanye because he did/ said something equally stupid. We get it. You're offended. This is just someone trying to get their 15 minutes of fame by riding on famous people and their dumb stunts.

When it comes to "dumb stunts" and poorly thought out comments made by celebrities, sure. I can see how open letters can be seen as riding coattails.

But that doesn't seem to be what's happening in this case at all. Did you read the letter? 50 some-odd people signed their names to this. The chances that anyone would say to herself/himself, "I'm gonna be one of 50+ co-signers on an open letter to Fox so I can get my 15 minutes" are slim to none.

I applaud them for writing the letter.

DrPhil, with respect to the "Men would never insult..." comment, I interpreted that to mean, "Real men would never insult...," thereby offering a more precise definition of what a man would do (or not do) in contrast to what a boy would do (or not do).

Unfortunately, it comes across as a No True Scotsman, so it's not without its faults. But I don't think the people who signed the letter are so naive as to think that male service members never insult or demean their fellow service members.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

DrPhil, with respect to the "Men would never insult..." comment, I interpreted that to mean, "Real men would never insult...," thereby offering a more precise definition of what a man would do (or not do) in contrast to what a boy would do (or not do).

Definitions of manhood and boyhood are fluid. What is said in theory is often not taught and done in practice. The reality for millions of people is manhood and masculinity are often defined and operated in not so flattering ways and that includes how "military men" have treated each other and treated women. There are and have always been millions of men and women who were taught and truly believe that "real men" are patriarchal, sexist, homophobic, and misogynist. They use biology, religion, and anything else to support the way things are.

I would have much rather the letter writers and signers acknowledged/admitted that and then said they are challenging misconceptions about men/manhood/masculinity to get more people to realize what "real men" should and should not do as far as patriarchy, sexism, and misogyny. It is dishonest and untrue to pretend that the Fox News idiots simply missed the "real man memo" when such a "memo" simply does not exist.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Definitions of manhood and boyhood are fluid.

What is said in theory is often not taught and done in practice. The reality for millions of people is manhood and masculinity are often defined and operated in not so flattering ways and that includes how "military men" have treated each other and treated women. There are and have always been millions of men and women who were taught and truly believe that "real men" are patriarchal, sexist, homophobic, and misogynist. They use biology, religion, and anything else to support the way things are.

The understood subtext of the letter was to state that mature adult males would not be so crass as demonstrated by the Fox news reporters.

The key concept is level of maturity to differentiate men from boys.

I would have much rather the letter writers and signers acknowledged/admitted that and then said they are challenging misconceptions about men/manhood/masculinity to get more people to realize what "real men" should and should not do as far as patriarchy, sexism, and misogyny. It is dishonest and untrue to pretend that the Fox News idiots simply missed the "real man memo" when such a "memo" simply does not exist.

Well, not a written memo per se, but a "memo" in the idea that as we grow up we should be taught how to behave and treat other people regardless of sex, religion, economic level, place of origin, and anything else. Or, what some people would call good manners.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

The understood subtext of the letter was to state that mature adult males would not be so crass as demonstrated by the Fox news reporters.

The key concept is level of maturity to differentiate men from boys.

"Mature adults males" is open for discussion. Just look at what goes on in the military. Unless they are claiming that large percent of males in the military are not "mature adult males"/"men"/"real men". If that's their claim then they need to do a massive overhaul and moratorium on the military.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Well, not a written memo per se, but a "memo" in the idea that as we grow up we should be taught how to behave and treat other people regardless of sex, religion, economic level, place of origin, and anything else. Or, what some people would call good manners.

I don't think it is as simple as "good manners". Patriarchy, sexism, homophobia and misogyny have not prevailed for centuries because of "bad manners."

I say all of this to say, that letter was timely and well-written but the impact was more along the lines of saying "no no no...bad boy...you get no soup...."

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

"Mature adults males" is open for discussion. Just look at what goes on in the military. Unless they are claiming that large percent of males in the military are not "mature adult males"/"men"/"real men". If that's their claim then they need to do a massive overhaul and moratorium on the military.

Within the context of the letter, a mature adult man would not use such a crude word / description of women.

I don't think it is as simple as "good manners". Patriarchy, sexism, homophobia and misogyny have not prevailed for centuries because of "bad manners."

I say all of this to say, that letter was timely and well-written but the impact was more along the lines of saying "no no no...bad boy...you get no soup...."

"Bad manners" show a lack of respect for others and self.

Patriarchy, sexism, homophobia and misogyny have prevailed for centuries because the line of demarcation changes and how people view these topics are very different.

It seems like you are taking this incident and letter and using it as a basis for making very broad generalizations to negatively characterize men. The way that you are coming across attacking men, you are no better than those Fox reporters who negatively characterize women.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Within the context of the letter, a mature adult man would not use such a crude word / description of women.

I know what the letter claims. If only reality was based on claims.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Patriarchy, sexism, homophobia and misogyny have prevailed for centuries because the line of demarcation changes and how people view these topics are very different.

And power dynamics. Which still makes it about more than "bad manners" and "immaturity".

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

...making very broad generalizations to negatively characterize men...the way that you are coming across attacking men

No, you just don't understand what I am saying. And that is absolutely fine.

I am not saying anything negative about men. I am talking about persistently negative definitions of manhood and masculinity (found in most predominantly male institutions) that cannot be overridden simply because people claim "real/mature men" don't do certain things. Writing a letter to Fox News sounds good on the surface but the nonsense still persists in society and in the military. I am not saying anything that has not been said for years about the military and other predominantly male institutions. It is along the lines of why some of us were not impressed in this thread: http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...sexual+assault

[DrPhil]

Just as expected, liberals and Democrats are all over the Internet using this as another reason to slam Fox News. They are making Fox News the scapegoat for something that has always been pervasive in the military and predominantly male institutions. Instead of highlighting the real issue and merely using Fox News as an example of a larger problem, they have lazily pretended there is no larger problem and lazily pretended the real problem is a "dumb boobs joke".

This is lazy "activism" and lazy "social change".

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Just as expected, liberals and Democrats are all over the Internet using this as another reason to slam Fox News. They are making Fox News the scapegoat for something that has always been pervasive in the military and predominantly male institutions. Instead of highlighting the real issue and merely using Fox News as an example of a larger problem, they have lazily pretended there is no larger problem and lazily pretended the real problem is a "dumb boobs joke".

This is lazy "activism" and lazy "social change".

I don't normally watch Red Eye but Greg Gutfield is known to be a bit crass. His show is Fox News version of Politically Incorrect which begs the question, I wonder how vocal democrats and liberals would be if it was Bill Maher who had made those comments?

[DrPhil]

Yeah, Bill Maher would get slammed. It is also an issue of how much crass (crassness?) people are willing to tolerate. Kind of like "it is okay to offend a little or certain people...don't offend a lot or the wrong people."